The Official Not606 German GP Chat & Predictions

Blurring the lines

http://en.espnf1.com/germany/motorsport/story/85123.html

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Formula One's regulations quite clearly state that a circuit's limits are defined by the two white lines that run around its perimeter. It seemed odd, therefore, that there was even a debate about whether or not Sebastian Vettel should have been penalised for passing Jenson Button on the penultimate lap of the German Grand Prix. The Red Bull drove with all four wheels off the circuit and in doing so gained an advantage. It was a breach of Article 20.2 of the sporting regulations and the precedent for such a breach is a drive-through penalty (or 20-second post-race penalty in lieu of that). End of story.

But it's a shame that the stewards had to tinker with the results after the chequered flag. Nobody wants to see a podium trophy change hands after the ceremony and it encourages conspiracy theories that taint the image and enjoyment of the sport. It's not the stewards' fault - they're just doing their jobs - the problem is that circuits no longer punish the drivers so the officials have to take up the slack.

The introduction of more and more run-off areas in the past decade has created opportunities for drivers to take liberties and as a result the stewards have had to take a more active role. Hockenheim, and the changes it has seen since 2002, typifies this shift. Part of the spirit of the old circuit is still intact in the stadium section and, as Michael Schumacher found out in free practice, the thin ribbon of asphalt still has the ability to bite back. But much of the circuit is now nestled between expansive run-off areas and that encourages drivers to push beyond the limit.

For most of the second half of the race Fernando Alonso had at least two wheels off the track in the final corner - nothing wrong with that - but on more than one occasion all four wheels strayed beyond. Presumably a driver of Alonso's standard wouldn't be consistently putting the car out there if there wasn't an advantage to be gained, but rather than facing the consequences when he pushed a little too far he was able to continue regardless. The risk / reward equation was permanently skewed towards reward and that's not good.

The industry-standard response is to put a thin strip of artificial grass beyond the exit kerb, but in the dry, and with the current levels of downforce, the drivers barely notice. Real grass has more serious consequences and is used to good effect at Silverstone. A thin strip has been left at corners such as Aintree, Becketts and Chapel before the safety net of the tarmac run-off area kicks in. In the interests of safety this isn't possible everywhere, but it should be considered more often than not.

Another effective solution can be found on the inside of turn eight at the Circuit de Catalunya. Over recent years the corner almost became non-existent as drivers attempted to cut more of the circuit away as they exited turn seven, but in 2011 the problem was solved by a small section of 'sausage kerb'. Now the drivers risk damaging the bottom of the car if they don't remain between the white lines and they have had to alter their entry to turn seven accordingly. Again, such measures are not possible everywhere, but it's another example of what can be done to retain the challenge of the circuit while ensuring it remains safe.

The turn six hairpin at Hockenheim needs to be given the same kind of attention to detail, and at the very least a strip of artificial grass should be laid on the outside. Tracks like Abu Dhabi are probably beyond saving, but it should be a major consideration in the future design of any circuit. The more punishing the circuits are, the less intervention will be needed from the stewards and the more emphasis there will be on driving talent. End of story.

Laurence Edmondson is an assistant editor on ESPNF1
© ESPN EMEA Ltd.

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I agree.

 

Good post Tom. And quite right too! Thanks.

 

I think the run offs need to be looked at.

I think it should have something that penalises the driver but isnt too unsafe. (i.e no jaggered blades sticking up to take the driver out)

Do you think it would be possible to have it like:

Track // edge of track Marking // Yard of Grass // Run off area // Gravel // Tyre Barrier

 

Vettel was always going four wheels off the track at Hockenheim. I would say he was much worse than Alonso for doing it. It seems some drivers just don't care about the rules, or sportsmanship in general.

 

Bando:
Individual circuits and their corners may require individual – or occasionally unique – solutions; however, your proposal (above) is a good basis.

In general, where the situation allows for it and in the absence of natural hazards, I would like to see this:
Track // edge of track Marking // 1m Grass // 1- 2m saucered Gravel* // Run off area // Trap Gravel getting ever deeper towards:// Tyre Barrier

*The first bit of gravel could be a narrow strip laid in a very shallow, 'U' shaped dip, with none of the hard edges which can easily launch a car skyward.

 

Maybe it also shows the RB8 isn't as good as its believed to be in the media as that's what it took to keep up with a Ferrari and a McLaren...

 

It was being done consistently. It is therefore reasonable to suspect that it was also done deliberately.

This is clearly against the spirit of the regulations which require a track to be defined by white-painted borders on both sides and for its complete length, and that no car shall deliberately use anywhere but the track, notwithstanding the discretionary maximum of two wheels being off it.

It has nothing to do with the performance of a driver – or indeed his car!

 

Indeed with 2 wheels off ok, 4 wheels nope!

Well that's not what excuses I've personally read in the past with other drivers becoming desperate to keep up with faster cars considering things do start to become a bit ugly.

Then again this is you Cosicave and I trust your word over the pundits any day as your not trying to stroke anybody's ego or trying to back up the "home team" in every situation that is questionable.

 

I'm sure they will find a way round the regulations soon, Silver. Have faith. In the meantime, just be sure that Vettel will break every rule in the book to keep up. Maybe he could be a bit more subtle next time so that the stewards can let him off easier.

 

True, but I would rather prefer if he tried a bit harder by not going back to the Seb of 2010 as it will only end in tears if he does and allows his temper to get the better of him.

F1 drivers are playing multiple mind games with him and it looks like they are taking it's toll now. Alonso, Narain, Lewis, Webber etc...

 

Bild: Conspiracy against Vettel?

*Translated with google*

The penalty of world champion Sebastian Vettel (25) on Sunday ensures at Hockenheim for Big Trouble at Red Bull motorsport director Helmut Marko (69) grumbles at the Red Bull station "Servus TV" on the control switch of the car world federation FIA. He speaks of "a strange aftertaste" and questions the neutrality of the rule, Guardian: "There is often a double standard."

The fact is Vettel collected retrospectively on Sunday a 20-second time penalty for overtaking maneuvers against Jenson Button (32/McLaren) and fell back from rank 2 to number 5.

Most of the riders and experts say the punishment for harsh, but justified.

Marko commented bitterly angry: it was "like stealing chickens with the death penalty" will be counted.

Vettel said yesterday about his campaign: "From my perspective, everything is really really expired. It's like in football where the referee gives a penalty, the other does not. "

But Red Bull feels more and more of the FIA ​​rule guards patronized: Recently engine settings have been banned, before subfloors including chatter and double wing. In Formula 1, it is no secret that Red Bull on the side of Formula 1 boss Bernie Ecclestone is. But is regarded as the archenemy of FIA boss Jean Todt. Therefore views the Fia closer look at Red Bull than with the other teams?

The hag-das. people believe ..





This is almost viewed as bad as the Lewis Spa-Francorchamps 08 situation, but with the German public this time.

 

At least its not just the british who write biased rubbish

 

It's even worse on auto motor und sport!

The Germans are well and truely blaming the FIA and other teams of a conspiracy against them lol!


Red Bull vs.. FIA: sharp criticism after Vettel penalty


Sebastian Vettel and his Red Bull racing team fight back. The head of motor sports teams for attacks on the punishment of the Hockenheim Automobile Federation FIA. And Vettel? "From my perspective, is really all expired right," he affirmed.

Red Bull has his star driver Sebastian Vettel once again taken into custody and criticized the International Automobile Federation FIA for the judgment against the German Formula 1 double World Champion sharp. The objective set by the FIA ​​sanction was "like chicken-stealing with the death penalty" to be punished, said Red Bull's motorsport director Helmut Marko.



Marko: "Button Vettel has left no room"

Vettel had to be overtaking the Grand Prix of Germany in the penultimate round against Jenson Button give him a 20-second penalty given. "He was out there with all four wheels, but the reason was the maneuver of Button, who has left him no room", was Marko.

Vettel had fallen by the penalty from second to fifth place. In the World Cup, he lost further ground on leaders and Hockenheim winner Fernando Alonso , who is already 44 points ahead of Ferrari. After Vettel immediately after the sentence had nothing to say, he confirmed on his website with some distance from the home race: "From my perspective, everything is really really expired, but you can do nothing if the leaders see the different."

But not only that it saw Sun "Sebastian is an advantage has given. That was so not in order," was Force India driver Nico Hulkenberg at a PR event on Monday said in Stuttgart.


Vettel team feels unfairly treated

"We feel right", but said Marko. A similar maneuver by McLaren-Mercedes driver Lewis Hamilton and Nico Rosberg in Bahrain pilot had gone unpunished. Vettel accused the race stewards to leave the track and is an advantage to have. "It's like in football. The referee gives a penalty to live, not the other then this one has," said Vettel.

But indifference is certainly not ended, the mood is very irritated. The ex-pilot Marko, known for statements with potential for provocation, McLaren gave man the guilt button now likely, heat up the atmosphere before the Hungarian Grand Prix this Sunday in Budapest on.

British newspapers had been spotted after Vettel for his part over an overtaking maneuver from Button-stall rival Lewis Hamilton and lamented it as "stupid" was.


Vettel wants to be especially careful

Here are some good nerves more than ever. Before the last race before the four-week summer break, it does not look good for Vettel's historic hat-trick. Trouble with the stewards in the future he wants to avoid at least as far as possible. "We will create for the next race even more into the stuff and be careful to do nothing that would jeopardize our placement also just kind of," announced the 25-year-old Heppenheim.







Scary stuff the media in any country, real scary stuff how they can twist things like that.

By the way I'm not Helmut Marko and no I dont work for him as he looks to be reading this forum with what I write

 

You can't.

But if it is inevitable that the car behind you is going to un-lap itself, you can either do it in a way which loses you the absolute minimum of time and has the lowest possible risk or you can just let it happen to you so that the guy behind has the initiative with all that entails.

Which did Vettel do?

Personally, I think Vettel lost fractions of a second; probably nothing of any significance at all. It's not as if he was held up other than at the corner in question. He seems to think that he did lose a lot of time and if so, then it's his own fault for not managing the situation better. What I think is primarily at issue is not lap-time but ego.........

 

I've done a rough paint job of how I think they should approach it using turn 1 at Hockenheim as an example:

please log in to view this image

There's an escape road going straight on for drivers who've lost control to slow down which provides them with a longer and slower route back to track, with a gravel trap on the outside for drivers who run wide.

Personally I have no problems with drivers who want to run wide, the opportunity is there for all drivers and if one can find the grip and a faster way through the corner then they deserve the advantage. I prefer to see the limit defined by what a driver or car can or is prepared to do, rather than where the FIA paint it. It will be interesting to see how they approach Ascari later in the year, after the fuss they kicked up last weekend they have no choice but to punish drivers for going wide on the exit, which is a shame because it will neuter one of the best corners on the calendar in my opinion.

Also interesting to hear how the German media are regarding Vettel, they sound similar to how the British media are with Hamilton, despite Benson suggesting in the past that Vettel's often criticised by the media in his homeland.

please log in to view this image

 

What is the difference between that and cutting corners though? How would you justify one and not the other?

 

Laughable. A conspiracy? A harsh penalty? What part of going off the track to gain an advantage do people not understand? Shocking.

 

Thats what you get when the media gets behind it's home driver. Everything the FIA and the stewards do is a conspiracy to harm his chances.

 

I'm sure most people in Britain felt identically about every penalty dished out to Hamilton over the last few seasons.

 

Indeed, Hamilton doing it to Kimi at Spa is another situation that could be compared with Seb and Button. Both sides would defend their driver to the death yet the steward outcome was the same.

[video=youtube;5K9P9z_Lwa0]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5K9P9z_Lwa0&feature=related[/video]

Allen: "Amazing action"
Brundle: "All Fair enough"
Brundle: "Keeping his cool"

Wikipedia:

Sébastien Bourdais of Toro Rosso said that "the penalty is really rough but in the end it's up to you to give the position back or not. Pretty straightforward".

The view was reiterated by his fellow drivers Nico Rosberg and Jarno Trulli. Trulli believed that "Hamilton got an advantage by cutting the chicane", saying, "Had he stayed on the road, he wouldn't have had the speed to overtake the Ferrari. In the same way at Monza someone could cut the first chicane, catch a rival's draft, and overtake him under braking at Roggia".

Lewis would probably never ever have had a crack at Kimi around the outside at the first part of the Bus Stop without knowing he had the option of going onto the asphalt part. I think we've got to get on top of the chicanes going forward, and we're not too far away from that at the moment, where drivers know that if you gain a position or gain an advantage, you have to give it back a bit more.

—Mark Webber

And many views of support for Lewis from Lauda and Stewart.


Sounds familiar doesn't it?

So does Helmut Marko talk out of his arse defending Seb? or does he speak the same way Lauda and Stewart did for Lewis that the punishment was OTT?