Which Way forward with brexit -Poll

[polyphemus]

Wow!!!

Politicians putting their personal agenda's aside and co-operating in the National Interest and not a War in sight.

I'll not hold my breath on that one.

 

[gelders pie]

Wow!!!

Politicians putting their personal agenda's aside and co-operating in the National Interest and not a War in sight.

I'll not hold my breath on that one.

I doubt if that’s in their genes .

 

[safc-noggieland]

Just a pie chart that tells us a lot. Not fake nees because the source is Her majesties customs and revenue.

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[Saf]

Just a pie chart that tells us a lot. Not fake nees because the source is Her majesties customs and revenue.

You must log in or register to see images

We're going through all this economical upheaval because that is what we voted for. NHS against Brexit doesn't sound like it has an agenda, mind.

 

[safc-noggieland]

We're going through all this economical upheaval because that is what we voted for. NHS against Brexit doesn't sound like it has an agenda, mind.

Just wanted to show that the hysteria around our E.U. contribution is non starter - we spend more on «cultural affairs». Jingoistic rabble rousing is s phrase that springs to mind.
KTF

 

[polyphemus]

Just wanted to show that the hysteria around our E.U. contribution is non starter - we spend more on «cultural affairs». Jingoistic rabble rousing is s phrase that springs to mind.
KTF

I have now way of knowing why those who voted to leave made that choice.
I only know why I did.
But I suspect that the reasons would have been many and varied.

But then, isn't that the case in any election?

As an aside has anyone noticed that Italy has been happily continuing to overspend as a country, to the extent that The EU has been making some quite serious threats to try and reign them in.
The recent French riots are in response to attempts by the French Government to make some reduction to their overspending. The French people are convinced that with the strength of The Euro behind them they can continue with their 'free ride social benefits' .
Last time we had to pay for the Greek problems even though we were out of The Euro.
Once we are out, any future problems will have a much reduced effect on us.

 

[cumbrianmackem]

Im convinced that the Italians and French people, NOT their politicians are looking at our Brexit and thinking we can have a bit of that.
I'm sure there are others that would ditch the EU if they could
When we go, and it's not an if, then it could start a domino effect which is what the EU politicians are terrified of cos that's the finish of the gravy train they've been on for years.

 

[The Norton Cat]

Im convinced that the Italians and French people, NOT their politicians are looking at our Brexit and thinking we can have a bit of that.
I'm sure there are others that would ditch the EU if they could
When we go, and it's not an if, then it could start a domino effect which is what the EU politicians are terrified of cos that's the finish of the gravy train they've been on for years.

But this dislike of EU politicians, or disgruntlement at Brussels' control over UK laws seem to be the only arguments for leaving. No one has put forward a proper argument for Brexit leaving us better off economically. Yes, we won't be tied directly to other EU economies that might cause fluctuations in ours but without a proper deal in place we are likely to be in massive trouble.

 

[Saf]

But this dislike of EU politicians, or disgruntlement at Brussels' control over UK laws seem to be the only arguments for leaving. No one has put forward a proper argument for Brexit leaving us better off economically. Yes, we won't be tied directly to other EU economies that might cause fluctuations in ours but without a proper deal in place we are likely to be in massive trouble.

That's one hell of a good reason for leaving. I voted for Brexit, which in my head was voting to leave the single market, leave the customs union and no longer have the ECJ ruling over us.

The project fear forecasts are from businesses and politicians who would like to see remain part of the EU. Nobody can say for certain what will happen to our economy because nobody has ever left the EU, before.

 

[safc-noggieland]

I have now way of knowing why those who voted to leave made that choice.
I only know why I did.
But I suspect that the reasons would have been many and varied.

But then, isn't that the case in any election?

As an aside has anyone noticed that Italy has been happily continuing to overspend as a country, to the extent that The EU has been making some quite serious threats to try and reign them in.
The recent French riots are in response to attempts by the French Government to make some reduction to their overspending. The French people are convinced that with the strength of The Euro behind them they can continue with their 'free ride social benefits' .
Last time we had to pay for the Greek problems even though we were out of The Euro.
Once we are out, any future problems will have a much reduced effect on us.

My post was not meant to promote any side in the debate as much as to put the economic hysteria into perspective. I believe voters on both side were fed half truths and even lies by truly cynical power-hungry egotistical politicians. I admit to slightly favour the remain side - however brexit voters won. What do these same cynical power-hungry MP do - continue to listen ONLY to themselves as they sit on there asses as the government and country drives over the cliff - instead of accepting the peapøes will and getting the best deal by ALL working together. But then again I am just a silly idealist.
KTF

 

[The Norton Cat]

That's one hell of a good reason for leaving. I voted for Brexit, which in my head was voting to leave the single market, leave the customs union and no longer have the ECJ ruling over us.

The project fear forecasts are from businesses and politicians who would like to see remain part of the EU. Nobody can say for certain what will happen to our economy because nobody has ever left the EU, before.

No, no one can know. But the single market and the customs union have had serious economic benefits to the UK. Leaving without a deal could cause serious impediments to our international trade which would have a major detrimental impact on the UK economy.
That's not project fear. That's economists looking at the potential repercussions and coming up with measured opinions on the possibilities.
There's been plenty of scaremongering from the leave side too. In fact, most of the arguments for leaving that I've seen have been based on people's fears of one kind or another.
Personally, I think the minor impacts on UK sovereignty that the EU causes are preferable to the potential economic fall out of Brexit.

 

[Saf]

No, no one can know. But the single market and the customs union have had serious economic benefits to the UK. Leaving without a deal could cause serious impediments to our international trade which would have a major detrimental impact on the UK economy.
That's not project fear. That's economists looking at the potential repercussions and coming up with measured opinions on the possibilities.
There's been plenty of scaremongering from the leave side too. In fact, most of the arguments for leaving that I've seen have been based on people's fears of one kind or another.
Personally, I think the minor impacts on UK sovereignty that the EU causes are preferable to the potential economic fall out of Brexit.

*Could* *Potentially* These are words that are just based on people's opinions from the remain camp.

Both sides lied in the election, the remain camp insisted that between 500k and 800k jobs would be lost just on the leave vote winning. They've done nothing but try to scare us to remain in the EU. It is still happening now. I don't know what part of democracy they don't understand?

Nobody is denying that temporarily there isn't going to be a downturn in our economy when we do leave the EU. That is to be expected. Once we arrange our trade deals with nations worldwide, that will soon pick the economy back up, again. We were always fine before the EU, and we'll be fine after it. Richard Branson compared the impact of leaving the EU to what this country went through in WW2. Apparently it is that bad for the UK. That's the sort of nonsense we are having to listen to. It's pathetic.

Minor impact on sovereignty? They make our laws and have control over our borders. They even tell us how many fish we can catch in our own waters. That's way more than minor, in my book.

 

[The Norton Cat]

*Could* *Potentially* These are words that are just based on people's opinions from the remain camp.

Both sides lied in the election, the remain camp insisted that between 500k and 800k jobs would be lost just on the leave vote winning. They've done nothing but try to scare us to remain in the EU. It is still happening now. I don't know what part of democracy they don't understand?

Nobody is denying that temporarily there isn't going to be a downturn in our economy when we do leave the EU. That is to be expected. Once we arrange our trade deals with nations worldwide, that will soon pick the economy back up, again. We were always fine before the EU, and we'll be fine after it. Richard Branson compared the impact of leaving the EU to what this country went through in WW2. Apparently it is that bad for the UK. That's the sort of nonsense we are having to listen to. It's pathetic.

Minor impact on sovereignty? They make our laws and have control over our borders. They even tell us how many fish we can catch in our own waters. That's way more than minor, in my book.

There's absolutely no guarantee that the economy would bounce back. Especially not if we leave with a no deal. Who are we going to trade with? We already do significant trade with most of the major economies outside the EU and many of those work with us because we are their gateway to the EU. Who is going to replace the EU nations that we trade with? Many of the nations that have been suggested by leave MPs have economies no bigger than some average sized UK towns. The world was a different place before the EU. The UK carried more weight. It's not like that anymore.

I'm not basing my opinions on what politicians say. I'm basing them on what people who work in the City tell me they are preparing for.

Like I said before, you're right, there are plenty of unknowns but the unknowns would be fewer by staying in. Personally, a recession hits me harder than the difference between lawmaking happening in Westminster or Brussels. The EU isnt perfect by any means and needs reform but running away from it isn't the answer.

 

[gelders pie]

At the time of the vote, I was one of the people who couldn't fathom who might be truthful and who might be lying. I do remember thinking though that the Bank of England will be politically neutral and those clever chaps will know about economics and finance etc. But in 2017, they admitted that the figures they came up with to support remain, were inaccurate. Not saying intentionally , but if they can't work it out, how and why should we believe the facts of anyone, on any side.

 

[polyphemus]

My post was not meant to promote any side in the debate as much as to put the economic hysteria into perspective. I believe voters on both side were fed half truths and even lies by truly cynical power-hungry egotistical politicians. I admit to slightly favour the remain side - however brexit voters won. What do these same cynical power-hungry MP do - continue to listen ONLY to themselves as they sit on there asses as the government and country drives over the cliff - instead of accepting the peapøes will and getting the best deal by ALL working together. But then again I am just a silly idealist.
KTF

So far I agree with 99% of what you say.
My only reservation is the assumption that a sizable percentage of the voters, on either side were misled by politicians or even honest people.
Mostly I believe that they made up their own minds, long before the circus came to town.
Did anyone really believe Boris and his NHS Bus slogan?
In general terms The EU has suffered from decades of bad publicity most of it deserved. My only surprise was that despite everything, something like 48% wanted to stay.

 

[ImissedShack]

I think it’s fair to say that the EU is a bloated protectionist bureaucracy which is moving toward a federalist state. If we leave and I am fast losing the belief that I live in a democracy then we will continue to trade with the EU. Undoubtedly it will be more complex and more costly than it is now for both parties but it should be quicker to agree trade deals with the rest of the world as we will not have 27 other countries potentially vetoing the deal.

At the time of the vote I naively thought that our politicians had some backbone, little did I think that they would roll over to have their bellies tickled.

 

[The Norton Cat]

So far I agree with 99% of what you say.
My only reservation is the assumption that a sizable percentage of the voters, on either side were misled by politicians or even honest people.
Mostly I believe that they made up their own minds, long before the circus came to town.
Did anyone really believe Boris and his NHS Bus slogan?
In general terms The EU has suffered from decades of bad publicity most of it deserved. My only surprise was that despite everything, something like 48% wanted to stay.

Funny you should say that because what surprised me was that as many as 52% would want to leave when, despite all of the daftness that comes with it, the benefits of EU membership seem so obvious.

 

[clockstander]

Theresa May, at least, does care about the country. The deal she's negotiated is about the best deal there is- you can't join a club, then decide you don't want to be in the club but keep all the advantages of being in the club. The problem comes from people like Rees-Mogg on one side and Corbyn on the other who are just hoping that the situation plays out so that they can push their own outdated and naive ideologies. In a situation like this there should be cross party collaboration in order to avert what could become a national crisis.

But the very person you are praising, May, ruled it out from the beginning, and if anyone is playing out a situation to advantage its her, and so far she has been deviously brilliant. Surely no one could envisage this scenario in that cursed referendum, whichever way the voted.

 

[The Norton Cat]

But the very person you are praising, May, ruled it out from the beginning, and if anyone is playing out a situation to advantage its her, and so far she has been deviously brilliant. Surely no one could envisage this scenario in that cursed referendum, whichever way the voted.

How is she playing anything out to her advantage?! She's taken an extremely difficult situation in which there are myriad factions wanting things their own way and negotiated about the only deal possible. And when it was clear that parliament weren't happy with that deal, she still went back and tried to get the impossible. She deserves massive respect in my opinion.

 

[Woody]

But this dislike of EU politicians, or disgruntlement at Brussels' control over UK laws seem to be the only arguments for leaving. No one has put forward a proper argument for Brexit leaving us better off economically. Yes, we won't be tied directly to other EU economies that might cause fluctuations in ours but without a proper deal in place we are likely to be in massive trouble.

There is a real danger of falling into the trap of repeating the bigotry of the doom laden project fear assurances from the remainers in responding to your comment. Whenever anyone forecasts the future then the one overriding fact is that the forecast will be wrong. However, one way to assess how the uk can do when we leave the eu is to look at the weaknesses of the construct. The phrase self serving bureaucracy comes to mind immediately as displayed disgustingly by the drunkard leader of the eu, an unelected civil servant who is paid 1.5 million a year plus perks to do what he does. Then think of the way that every month the whole set up moves from Brussels to Strasbourg at massive cost because of petty jealousies. Then think of the number of civil servants whose only job is to produce regulations that tell us what to do. Then realise that when in the eurocracy we were only 1 of 28, and 20 plus of those are at the behest of the eurocrats who dish out the loans etc ... our money. Then look at how our fishing industry has been destroyed, how the French farming sector is protected by the CAP to the detriment of our own. Then see how our industry is gradually being destroyed by eu loans helping other nations take our manufacturing .. one example that sticks in my gut is the eu loan that helped Ford Transit move from Southampton to TURKEY, of all places .. and many other examples. But from an economic view point just consider where the future lies in world trade … by the eu’s own admission 90% of future world demand will come from outside the eu. Then remember, we were the 4th largest economy in the world when we were conned into joining, we are now 6th. An eu superstate with its own army and its own taxation laws await those who stay in. I could go on, as you may realise I am very very much for leaving soonest .. and no deal is clearly better than Mays deal.