Sometimes a price needs to be paid to make things better. Your arguments are reasonable and well put, however to my mind staying in and grinding away to make change would be great if we really had any influence, I feel we have little. Whilst it has many flaws, I like our democracy, unfortunately staying in the EU is and will continue to erode that. Like polyphemus, in the last referendum I voted to join a free trade area (not a developing united states of Europe / Germany). The one thing we have always been good at is trade, I have no doubt that after an initial difficult period, we will re-establish ourselves as a trading nation, outside of the EU. I am interested why people on here who voted to leave did so, and if they would vote the same again now, I for one would. I didn't vote because of immigration, or promises of millions of pounds saved, I voted to regain control of our destiny.
I didn't vote either, but almost certainly would have voted to remain. Now we have had the vote and now I have considered all the alternatives, I would say a clean break with no deal is the way we should proceed. We on earth do we need to hang on to the coat tails of Europe when we have the opportunity to go our way 100%.....Like some have said, it might not be pretty for the short term, but in the long term we will be ok. Also, would love to see those smug Kernts Junker and Tusk come crawling back to us looking for a trade deal...
I agree, but what if the price that needs to be paid to ensure economic security is a federal Europe? There are absolutely no guarantees that everything will be better after Brexit. Just as there are no guarantees that staying in will be to our benefit. But at least with the EU we know what we're getting.
All this threat of a no deal has come far too late in the negotiating process. This should have been brought out ages ago (at least a year ago). The EU never thought we would go for no deal hence their negotiating stance. We should have forced their hand. 39billion is a lot for them to lose. Why oh why it wasn’t used against them I’ll never know. For what it is worth, in my opinion, there won’t be a no deal. The winery’s and car manufacturers will make sure of that. There won’t be concessions, but we will default to a Norway or perhaps Switzerland deal. Given how close the vote was, this should have been given more thought at the start (or the start of the negotiations should have been delayed until a proper plan was in place)
But the UK Governments have tried to reform the system, and met with No every time. Can you seriously expect France to give an inch over the CAP? Even when Cameron asked for help with some concessions (give me some crumbs to throw at the peasants) in order to get the Remain Vote he wanted, The EU refused, point blank to help him. That in itself will have persuaded some voters to say, stuff you, I'll vote to leave in that case. Mrs May recently got a similar response from them. Basically you can take it or leave it. None of this sounds like it comes from an organisation bent on reform or compromise. There is an agenda there, driven by France and Germany for a European 'Super State'. Laudable? Perhaps. Possible? NO. The cultural differences are to wide. But if Germany and France want to try, good luck to them. But it's fair to point out that GB is by no means the only State where the population is making waves about The EU. In France, Germany and Italy the right wing are beavering away waving the banner of discontent. Hungary looks almost ready to follow our example and as one of the Countries that don't use the Euro, they might just do it. Poland looks to be unhappy too. So this CLUB, The EU is by no means the happy Union that it is often made out to be. Even after we have left, there may be troubles ahead and we will be grateful not to be directly involved in them.
Left wing ? Liberal ? WHERE? Mail, Express, Sun, Star, Times, Telegraph, Independant (bon’t let the name fool you), Guardian etc. etc. One time in my dim snd distant past The Mirror with journalist like Cassandra and John Pilger could be considered left and a protector of working men like my dad, uncles and neighbours on our estate. But now I ask again where are these lift wing daily papers ? KTF
If there was any sign of a chance of the eu reforming then your approach would be sensible. However from the experiences of our various PM's there is no chance of change. The eu is a bureaucracy, bureaucrats do not change as they consider they are always right. To make matters worse, of the 28 nation states at least 20, the majority in any vote, are dependent on the money they get from the eu, and that money is in practice under the control of the bureaucrats. It is too inflexible an organisation. There was a time that industry used to consider big was beautiful in the management of their business, however they realised that small independent units are more flexible and adaptable in the modern world .. the eu as currently set up is incapable of doing that. I have seen no argument apart from predictions of doom and the plague that have been used to support the remain argument, and we all have seen how accurate the europhile predictions have been to date .. I listened to an eu official today, an eu official indeed, who pointed out that the uk was the eu's largest single trading partner, and he questioned the current negotiating tactics of the eu as being out of touch with reality.
That's an interesting point. I do agree that the only way to have started these negotiations would have been a no deal approach. However, although I have absolutely no time for May, she had a balancing act to do with the differing views held so vigorously in parliament. Maybe, just maybe, her approach of, in effect, capitulating to the eu and then facing the wrath of the many pro leavers in parliament and the contempt of the public, then returning to the eu to try to get some flexibility in the wording, to be mocked ... no less than mocked... by the eurocrats, then now she can only take one position that even europhiles should accept .. no deal until the eu becomes reasonable and rational.
