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You've clearly not integrated into your host nation enough yet when you believe that your Country has the right to hold onto part of that Country in perpetuity because of a war 300 years ago. Your stance is extremely arrogant and not a little embarrassing considering you're an immigrant and therefore merely a guest in that Country.
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does it only count when the brits do it swordsie
The battle over Ceuta, Spain's African Gibraltar
It overlooks the mouth of the Mediterranean, a fortified port city in the shadow of a towering rock. Long notorious for its smugglers, it is now a duty-free haven, owned by a country across the sea but claimed by the sovereign nation that surrounds it.



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While Morocco claims Ceuta as its own, Spain has no intention of giving up the exclave Photo: John Robertson
By Fiona Govan, Ceuta
5:51PM BST 10 Aug 2013
And each morning thousands of people queue in searing heat to cross its international border for a day’s work before crossing back to their homes in the poorer surrounding towns whose very existence depends on it.
This could be a description of Gibraltar, the British exclave on the southern Spanish coast that was the subject of an international row last week as Madrid stepped up its claims of sovereignty over the Rock.
But in fact it is Ceuta, the tiny Spanish territory that lies just 18 miles across the water from Gibraltar in North Africa. While Morocco claims Ceuta as its own, Spain has no intention of giving up the exclave.
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The rock of Gibraltar seen from Ceuta (John Robertson)
The similarities between the two are striking.
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Both are military and naval bases dominated by fortified mountains, and both contain populations which are racially mixed but united in their fervent loyalty to a crown and country whose capital lies hundreds of miles away.
In Gibraltar, the Union flag flutters from every balcony and British bobbies pace the streets past fish and chip shops, English pubs and store names familiar from every market town the length and breadth of the British Isles.
In Ceuta, on a palm tree-lined boulevard that could easily be in Barcelona or Alicante, Spaniards pick at tapas washed down with a cerveza or glass of Rioja, as the crimson and gold of their flag stirs on flagpoles in the evening sea breeze.
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Ceuta (John Robertson)
And the 84,000-strong population is just as determined to remain as it is.
“We are as Spanish as people from Madrid or Valencia, it would be unthinkable to try to give the city to Morocco,” said Maria Leon, a 30-year-old born in Ceuta who like many Spanish suffering in the economic crisis is currently unemployed.
“In that way, I do feel sympathy with the people of Gibraltar. So what if our land is at the tip of another country? I think the politicians should just leave things alone and let us get on with our lives peacefully.”
The diplomatic row over Gibraltar erupted last week when Spain imposed lengthy border checks that led to queues of up to eight hours, seemingly in retaliation after Rock authorities created an artificial reef in their waters to promote fish stocks but also stop what it saw as illegal fishing by Spanish boats.
Spain’s foreign minister ramped up tension with threats to introduce a 50 euro (£43) crossing tax at the border and close Spanish airspace to Gibraltar traffic.
In the shadows of the row, Madrid is anxious that the world quietly forgets its own controversial ownership of its African enclaves and doesn’t invite comparisons.
Ceuta and its larger sister city Melilla, some 250 miles further south along the coastline, have long been a flashpoint in Moroccan and Spanish diplomatic relations.
When King Juan Carlos made his first royal tour of the cities in November 2007, he stirred up a hornet’s nest, igniting Moroccan claims that the two enclaves be returned to maintain its nation’s “territorial integrity”.
Angry demonstrations were staged on the Moroccan sides of the borders and outside the Spanish Embassy in Rabat, while the Moroccan government expressed “strong rejection and clear disapproval” of the “continued and anachronistic colonialism” shown by Spain.
“We would like to remind everyone that the two cities form an integral part of Moroccan soil and their return to their homeland will be sought through direct negotiations with our neighbour Spain,” said the then Moroccan Prime Minister Abbas El Fassi. King Mohammad VI even briefly recalled his Ambassador to Madrid in protest over the visit to the “occupied territories”.
In the parallel dynamics of the enclaves, the Moroccan reaction foreshadowed Spanish expressions of outrage at a visit by British royals to the Rock last year.
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(John Robertson)
When the Earl and Countess of Wessex paid a visit to Gibraltar as part of the Diamond Jubilee celebrations, Spain’s government expressed its “upset and unhappiness” over their presence in the disputed territory. The distinction, Spain insists, is that while Gibraltar is recognised as an overseas territory and therefore ripe for “decolonisation”, Ceuta and Melilla form an integral part of Spanish territory and have the same status as semi-autonomous regions as those on the mainland.
While Spain ceded Gibraltar to the British in the 1713 Treaty of Utrecht, its enclaves in North Africa were founded centuries ago, long before the Kingdom of Morocco, Melilla in 1497 and Ceuta in 1580. “Those people who want to make comparisons are uneducated,” argued Juan Jose Improda, the regional president of Melilla from the PP party last week as the Gibraltar dispute yet again made headlines.
“Gibraltar is recognised as a colony by both Spain and Britain – not so with Ceuta and Melilla, which have the same state legislation as is applied in the rest of the nation.”
He went on to argue that Gibraltar is considered a “non-self governing territory” by the United Nations, which means its status is discussed annually by the Committee on Decolonisation, while Morocco has done nothing to include Melilla and Ceuta on that list.
Samir Bennis, a Moroccan and political adviser on Arab affairs at the UN in New York, believes this is because of historical political failings by Morocco.
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The arab quarter in Ceuta (John Robertson)
 
“What mattered most during the Sixties and Seventies when such things were discussed was for Morocco to recover its territories in the south, including the Spanish protectorate of the Western Sahara,” Mr Bennis, who has published books on the subject, told The Sunday Telegraph.
“That was cleverly exploited by Spain who persuaded Morocco not to take the matter of Ceuta and Melilla up with the UN but agree to make it a strictly bilateral issue between Spain and Morocco.”
He accuses the Spanish of operating “double standards” by dismissing Moroccan sovereignty claims as unfounded yet pursuing their own claims over Gibraltar.
“Morocco has always put forth the parallel between the two issues, highlighting that Spain cannot claim to regain its sovereignty over Gibraltar while refusing the legitimate right of Morocco to regain its sovereignty over the two enclaves. The solutions are inextricably linked.”
In Ceuta itself, its residents, like those in Gibraltar who in a 2002 vote rejected the idea of becoming Spanish by 17,900 to 187, show no desire to change the status quo.
As Ms Leon put it: “If there are people here who want to be a part of Morocco, and I haven’t met any, there is nothing stopping them from crossing over and living life there. But most of us, even the Arabs, are happy being Spanish.”
In the Principe district of Ceuta one could be forgiven for thinking they had accidentally crossed the border and entered an Arab town.
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Ceuta near the border with Morocco (John Robertson)
The run-down neighbourhood of winding alleys and shabby apartment buildings with its several mosques stretches across a hillside near the Moroccan border, and is a far cry from the sophisticated Spanish lifestyle on display in Ceuta’s port area. Here, residents chatter in Arabic and stroll through the streets in djellabas as they prepare festivities to mark the end of Ramadan. But they too are appalled at the idea of one day being turned over to Morocco.
“Of course Ceuta should stay a part of Spain,” said Mohammad, a small businessman and one of the Muslims who make up almost half of Ceutas population.
“It’s always been Spain. We feel Spanish even though we are part of Africa. I’m a Muslim first because that is my religion, but I was born here, I have a Spanish passport, and when the King Juan Carlos visited I came down and waved a Spanish flag at him.
“I have links with Morocco but if you gave me a choice I would always stay Spanish. I’m much better off than my Muslim brothers across the border.”
The border serves as a reminder, if any were needed, of why those born in Ceuta are better off than their Moroccan neighbours. Across no-man’s land stretch three high fences topped by rolls of barbed wire and equipped with motion detectors, flood lights and automatic tear gas canisters.
Over the years dozens have lost their lives trying to scale that fence to get into Spanish territory, with the promise of making a life in Europe.
But for the time being at least, it is the accusations of human rights’ abuses at another border, that of Gibraltar and La Linea, that are grabbing headlines, as people attempting to cross between the two towns are forced to endure long lines in temperatures above 86F (30C).
“For Spain,” a former British diplomat to the country told The Sunday Telegraph, “Gibraltar is like a stone in the shoe. It rubs and rubs and causes discomfort. It always has and it always will.”
 
does it only count when the brits do it swordsie

Certainly not, as you'd have seen from an earlier post
I wonder if in France its the same crowd who gloried in Empire (conservatives) who are now whinging about immigration from former colonies? And whining about being in the EU?

If there's a Spanish person on this thread who lives in Morocco and is giving out about immigrants back in Spain & claiming Moroccan territory as their own, direct me to them and I'll give them a similar argument.
 
Can't agree with this
I fly back into England and look down at what seems a very crowded land ... It isn't there is loads of space
We have no rights just because the dice landed in our favour and we were lucky to be born here
England is a big shop with hungry greedy people always shopping
Investments and property and I'm all right jack is the focus . Most in debt in one way or another pretending they are happy . The focus I find is very inward with wealth being the main driver. Social engineering in London is gathering real pace now as families on housing benefits are relocated to other areas of the UK and forgotten . The councils selling their assets to the developers who are developing what? For what?
There is no wonder that different ethic groups isolate themselves in such an environment
The UK has generated this rich wonderland is it any wonder that people has their dreams set on this illusion
Of course the NHS and the schools are at breaking point nothing to do about population just poor management and the fact that money goes to other corrupt ventures to make the rich richer

So cashing in on inflated property is the way as many flee the capital
But what to do with equity when Londoners buy in the south for what seems to them pocket money ... Get a second property and rent it out ... Your money makes nothing in the banks ... They are too busy borrowing and gambling larger sums financing the developers
Rent prices increase property on paper goes up as greed makes demand ... Seen the prices in Brighton lately? It's growing very quickly and of course the infrastructure can't cope
people are squeezed into small groups of a lot different origins it's human to gang up and watch selfish people focussed on only themselves
The great thing is IMO that new wave pretend clever rich can't unite ever
Pick any typical housing new build complex in the south and you will find the people I hate most ... These people have shallow ideals with rented cars and waffle about how much their house prices have gone up ... and moan about the trouble they have with their tenants ... The very people driven out of society
How many young people could afford a house and at what cost to life

When I hear or read crap about how the problem is all about other people coming to the UK for a dream of a better life I get mad

I agree with Madrid however in another country respect that culture and immerse ... Trouble is the UK has no culture based on the pin pick I have mentioned above ... It's rotten

Ex pats if britains move abroad but immigrants if people come to us

Until some Brit gets his head cut off on the internet we are all happy watching Syriana on Netflix about as close as we get to understand the problems of the Middle East

Happy to accept that Islam is total evil and get brainwashed when selected news of dangerous terrorists is fed to us .... Meanwhile the slaughter in Palestine goes on without a mention

I can fully understand why the west looks bad to other areas of the world
Who exactly are the extremists ?
When is enough enough for the rich on the UK ? Isn't that being extreme ?

We can't handle the horror of a head being cut off when in short it's just another life being taken ... Wrong of course but what is worse people dying a slow painful death on a NHS waiting list because of lack of money ? Or suffering from killer stress because of debt etc ... The answer make lager cheaper than bottled water

It's ****ed and the UK is absolutely full of racists I am racist against what us Brits have become

I don't really see the link between some people working hard and becoming wealthy and other people taking advantage of a generous welfare state that wasn't designed to just let anyone who fancies living here live here. It's great if we are capable of saving people from war-torn nations and we do more than our fair share imo. Far too many come here to not contribute to or integrate with society- essentially they want the best of both worlds by taking advantage of a rich nation and creating their own mini-homeland with its incompatible rules.
 
I think all white Australians should be forced to live as Aborigines.
I look at it as such, when in Rome, do as the Romans do.

If a particular type of people come to our country, they need to follows the given laws of the land.
What if we went to their country of birth .......... would we be allowed to change their laws to suit our needs?

The biggest problem we have here in Australia and it may be the same all round the world ............. is that a particular race of people want to move to our country, ( why, because we have little crime and violence? ) ............. but they then want to insist on us that we should allow them to practice their beliefs and enforce their rules upon us.

In other words, we must allow them into our country, pay them benefits and alike, allow them to practice their beliefs, which may include treating women as third rate citizens, female genital mutilation, acts of violence / terrorism .................... for which they feel they have a god given right to cry 'Racists / discrimination ' if we object.

The weak kneed politicians, ( who allowed them into our great country in the first place ) and the bleeding hearts society, then bow further to their needs, so not to upset the United Nations and alike.

Yes, you, I and many other self respecting people, who love our country and what our fathers fought for, are witnessing society changing for the worse.
There are many of a certain faith who obviously want peace but they and their leaders are yet to make decisive statements and draw a line in the sand, denouncing those that choose to express hate whilst masking their beliefs as religious.

Another sore point may be seeing the areas we grew up in changing overnight, for the worse. We can't hold onto time forever but all we ask for is a little common courtesy from our fellow man. We do not want to feel threaten in our own environment and if we see something that is wrong, we should be allowed to voice our opinion in the right ............ and not be hounded for it.

These are just my thoughts cause at the end of the day, I just want people in general to mix and get along ............ if you don't wish to assimilate with us, why come to our country in the first place?
typically racist response you would expect from an aussie, you really are the most insipid english speaking nation on earth. why don't you accuse them all of being *****'s as well, like you did to the Aborigines so you could strip them of their rights, kids and land in 2007. a nation of social rtards from the 19th century.
 
typically racist response you would expect from an aussie, you really are the most insipid english speaking nation on earth. why don't you accuse them all of being *****'s as well, like you did to the Aborigines so you could strip them of their rights, kids and land in 2007. a nation of social rtards from the 19th century.

Calling someone racist is quite a serious accusation. I didn't get that vibe from Aussie's post. I dare say you've had one or two.
 
typically racist response you would expect from an aussie, you really are the most insipid english speaking nation on earth. why don't you accuse them all of being *****'s as well, like you did to the Aborigines so you could strip them of their rights, kids and land in 2007. a nation of social rtards from the 19th century.

Yes, unfortunately someone like yourself has to trot out the 'you took it from the Aborigines' ................. ( the same circumstances that happened all round the world if you want to go back far enough ) Just for your benefit, I'm talking 2015, not 1770.

As another poster has stated, my post was not racist, I welcome anyone who is prepared to mix in with any other nationalities and not treat woman with disrespect, not to mention, bludge on our welfare system.
May I suggest you enroll in a higher education program so you can learn to refrain from making such childish remarks.
 
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is big ern queens in disguise

No he's not 'Queens.' He's a West Ham fan that used to go by the handle 'Miggins.' He was on our board the last time that we had a thread like this that also went to rat ****.
 
Certainly not, as you'd have seen from an earlier post


If there's a Spanish person on this thread who lives in Morocco and is giving out about immigrants back in Spain & claiming Moroccan territory as their own, direct me to them and I'll give them a similar argument.

Yep you are going find hundreds of QPR supporting Spanish folk in Morocco <doh>, your hatred for anything British/English from past and present could quite easily be construed as 'racist', but you don't see it that way Seamus. I have every right to talk about immigration give my opinion like everyone else, some will like it some will not. But for you to keep banging on about about imperialistic Britain being cause of all the worlds problems and the current Islamic troubles is laughable and plain wrong.
I refuse to discuss why I live in Spain or what I do here and I also refuse to be pidgeon-holed by an Irish keyboard warrior who basically gets his thrills from winding up fellow posters and soon as he sniffs a chance to vent his anti-Britishness/Englishness.
Have a good day.
 
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your hatred for anything British/English from past and present could quite easily be construed as 'racist'. an Irish keyboard warrior who basically gets his thrills from winding up fellow posters and soon as he sniffs a chance to vent his anti-Britishness/Englishness.

I resent that. Britain in the finest nation on earth and I've nothing but admiration & respect for her and her people. You've got me horribly wrong on that score my friend.
 
I resent that. Britain in the finest nation on earth and I've nothing but admiration & respect for her and her people. You've got me horribly wrong on that score my friend.

Hahaha ok Seamus, anyway I'm signing off I'm going to a Spanish wedding in the beautiful town of Toledo on the banks of the river Tajo. Spanish weddings are long and lavish, I'll be the only Limey there amongst hundreds (I kid you not) I do hope that I can control the urge to burst out and sing 'Rule Britainia or God Save The Queen' during the nuptials. I won't wear my 'Gibraltar is British now and forever' badge either, I should try and integrate a bit more because whatever will the in-laws think?. Enjoy your posting fest Seamus.
'Salud!'
 
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I don't really see the link between some people working hard and becoming wealthy and other people taking advantage of a generous welfare state that wasn't designed to just let anyone who fancies living here live here. It's great if we are capable of saving people from war-torn nations and we do more than our fair share imo. Far too many come here to not contribute to or integrate with society- essentially they want the best of both worlds by taking advantage of a rich nation and creating their own mini-homeland with its incompatible rules.

People is this country don't work hard
We haven't got to the very reason we have imported our service workers
Of course it's attractive this system for the world but it's not right in my book. The world is generally broke thinking we are rich is an illusion
 
People is this country don't work hard
We haven't got to the very reason we have imported our service workers
Of course it's attractive this system for the world but it's not right in my book. The world is generally broke thinking we are rich is an illusion

Is that a haiku?

Shall we all hold hand and sing to make the world a better place?
 
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