Off Topic This Thread May Be Short-Lived

[Congleton_QPR]

I am not anti Muslim per se, I'm sure there are decent Muslim folk just as there are non Muslims, however my issue is with the Muslim culture riding roughshod over the long standing heritage and culture of the country they have chosen to reside in.
I don't believe there should be a mosque in every city of Britain any more than I think there should be a C of E church in the middle east.
I don't believe it is appropriate to be dressed in hijabs and burkas in a country where standard clothes are the norm.
I am tired of the Muslim population falling over themselves to get offended by parts of the English culture that they don't like and in response to that us having to placate them to make THEM feel more at home.
There is very much an "Us and Them" feel about the whole situation and I think it is exacerbated by the separatist Muslim population as opposed to the ever accepting Brit who for fear of being called racist must embrace the political spin that talks of "the rich tapestry of multi culturalism"
In short , as I think someone has already said "when in Rome" or to put it more bluntly, Fit in or eff off.

 

[QPR Oslo]

This is the World we are living in, with many, many cultures and instant communications for years, and way, way beyond the time when insular, prejudiced people should have realised this, stopped moaning about it, and started living with it. Look beyond the fasade and that strange looking person is probably just like your brother or sister.

 

[Congleton_QPR]

This is the World we are living in, with many, many cultures and instant communications for years, and way, way beyond the time when insular, prejudiced people should have realised this, stopped moaning about it, and started living with it. Look beyond the fasade and that strange looking person is probably just like your brother or sister.

That's all very admirable as long as it works both ways.
How would it go down if an English holiday group strolled through downtown Baghdad drinking , with the girls in bikinis and the Lads with shirts off eating a kebab during the fast of Ramadam?
Rightly, in that country and in that culture it would be frowned upon, if not worse (did you see what happened to the girl who stripped in Malaysia disrespecting their culture?)
Its about having respect for the place you have chosen to visit or in this case live in

 

[QPRski]

This is a footy forum and religion is a very emotive topic, but I will dip my toe into this thread.

I believe that there needs to be TOLERANCE from BOTH SIDES and MUTUAL RESPECT.

If people follow very simple rule or philosophy, then I believe people with different views, cultures and religions can "generally" live in good harmony.

EXTREMISM of any kind, which means an impinging of personal views, behaviours and views is in my view intolerant and disrespectful, and is dangerous.

Q.E.D.


p.s. If this the current main focus of our discussion, then it must be very quiet on the footy front and sleepy at HQ!

 

[kiwiqpr]

most if not all of these people have left their countrys to escape the **** that exists there
why do they then want to turn their new countrys into little carbon copies of what they have escaped from
if you don't want to enjoy the new country and all it may have to offer then piss off back to where you have come from

having said that I wish some of the fat ugly people in this country would take advantage of full cover and face masks
not that I can claim to be any sort of oil painting

 

[sb_73]

Jesus ****. Probably too early in the morning for this, brave stuff Strolls.

- I love multiculturalism/diversity. It's great walking down Uxbridge Road on matchday. Not bothered by integration, as long as the law of the land is respected and there is no inter community hatred. It makes my life more interesting to have lots of different cultures, languages, foods etc on my doorstep, and keeping me happy is, after all, the most important thing. Sadly religious belief tends to lead some people towards hatred of those who don't share their 'faith'.

- The headscarf/veil thing just makes me sad, that women have been coerced into believing in a creed which actively hates them to the extent that they can't be seen. When I see it it just makes me think 'there goes another slave'.

- I, as may have been spotted, despise religion of all creeds, but it's a matter of personal choice for ADULTS. It is unacceptable to imagine that indoctrination of children is tolerable in any form. If the consequences of your religious belief lead you into conflict with the law, expect to be punished and don't whine about it. And of course I reserve the right to criticise, debate and mock stupid beliefs of all types at all times. Attacking ideas and beliefs is always fair game, attacking on the basis of race, sex, sexual orientation or anything else that is innate, unchosen and unchangeable, never is.

- I have had enough of being told that ISIS/terrorists 'don't represent real Islam'. Why the **** should the onus be on me, an anti-theist, to make the distinction between different factions of idiocy? Equally I don't care whether the Catholics or the methodists represent the Christian God. I'm in no position to make doctrinal decisions, stop asking me to tolerate the intolerable. It is obvious that something in Islam contains the seeds of terrorism, and if you look through history and across the world, so do all other religions (and, in fairness, any totalitarian ideology). Obviously some Muslims would never dream of commiting these acts of terror and are appalled by them, but it's no good just disowning those who do it, wringing your hands and expecting authorities with no insight whatsoever to sort it all out for you, blaming 'social media' - it's the people who are evil, not the tools they use.

- totally agree Strolls that the security services job is to keep me secure, not look after idiots. Stopping them getting back in to the country once they have gone would be my priority, along with chucking tons of support to the Kurds. However, in the current case, the exploitation of kids makes it more complicated.

 

[GoldhawkRoad]

I disagree, Goldie. The headscarves seem to have become some kind of statement for Muslim parents to make via their children. It seems to me to be a token of Islamic militancy. The worst aspect of any religion is that children should be defined by their parents in such a way.

So presumably you would distinguish between say, a sikh child wearing a turban, and a muslim child wearing a headscarf. Both cover the hair, neither cover the face.

 

[Stroller]

So presumably you would distinguish between say, a sikh child wearing a turban, and a muslim child wearing a headscarf. Both cover the hair, neither cover the face.

I would say both were wrong, Goldie.

I heard an interesting radio interview recently with Nazir Afzal, the former Chief Crown Prosecutor for north-west England. He was asked, somewhat insultingly really, whether the fact that he was a Muslim made it more difficult for him to prosecute the Rochdale sexual grooming cases. 'Not at all', he answered, 'my religion refines me, it doesn't define me'. A nice motto.

Sending children to school in religious attire is to define them by religion before they have had the chance to make their own choice and is wrong in my view.

 

[TimPR78]

Time for an atheist (well anti theist) and a liberal to have an opinion Right, if it's a race or immigration issue that's another thing for me (Strolls not saying that you have made it so in any shape or form). For me in this day and age if you want to believe in a sky fairy with no evidence of its existence, fine! go for it I honestly couldn't give a ****, the problem is when firstly allowances are made such as the lovely tax breaks they get, secondly this is taught in schools (in America some states teach creationism in science class, unbelievable!),.

However a further and most important point which I point directly at those of Islamic faith, not exclusively there are other faiths and belief structures to criticize, is when their beliefs infringe upon human rights which it does worldwide and on this island. Due to the size of my company I am lucky enough to be exposed to people of all different backgrounds and cultures, which I believe has made me a better person, however NONE of the Muslim men have found homosexuality acceptable, imagine being a gay Muslim, good luck with that! Also the treatment of women whilst varying starts as terrible and ranges to straight out criminal, I mean I consider it abuse and they should be put inside, treating women as second class citizens because it's 'your beliefs' or 'part of your culture' is not an excuse! the 'culture' seems to be out of sync with what is commonly seen as decent and in fitting with the laws of the land. There are many other things I could pick out but I will leave it at those 2 for now.

I don't dislike all Muslims, nor do I think tarring all with the same brush helps anyone however from my life experience I find some of their 'beliefs' and how they act or would act upon these beliefs to be unacceptable and there should be no excuses or allowances for this!

 

[sb_73]

I would say both were wrong, Goldie.

I heard an interesting radio interview recently with Nazir Afzal, the former Chief Crown Prosecutor for north-west England. He was asked, somewhat insultingly really, whether the fact that he was a Muslim made it more difficult to him to prosecute the Rochdale sexual grooming cases. 'Not at all', he answered, 'my religion refines me, it doesn't define me'. A nice motto.

Sending children to school in religious attire is to define them by religion before they have had the chance to make their own choice and is wrong in my view.

It seems to me then that Nazir Afzal is not religious at all. The whole point of religion is that it saves you the bother of thinking by offering a one size fits all package of answers for all life's unanswerable questions. You are literally defined by it if you truly have faith.

I suspect that the vast majority of the 'religious' aren't truly religious in this sense, they default into a religion because of culture, expediency, can't be arsed to think etc, its impact on them is largely cosmetic, their holy scriptures are fortunately so open to interpretation that you can use them to support any action or decision you want anyway.

 

[Swords Hoopster.]

At the risk of giving Dr Dolittle (Andy) another excuse to hate on the Sheites, another practice that should be banned is halal slaughtering.

A contestant at the Rose of Tralee explains the grisly process:

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[GoldhawkRoad]

Sending children to school in religious attire is to define them by religion before they have had the chance to make their own choice and is wrong in my view.

I see where you're coming from Strolls, but you won't change it, any more than you will stop Orthodox Jewish parents giving their kids skull caps or some practising Christians wanting their kids to wear a crucifix.

For me, as has been pointed out aptly in this throught-provoking thread, integration is the key rather than attire (so long as a garment doesn't cover the face). I looked at photos of children from a school in Tower Hamlet meeting Michelle Obama in the last couple of days. They are well dressed in a smart (if drab) brown uniform, all wearing head scarvers, all waving American and British flags with enthusiasm after listening to (the Christian) Mrs Obama. The emphasis was on the ability of young women to achieve - highly commendable. My only question was, in this era of multiculturalism, where were the other religions represented? I wondered whether it was the best choice of school for America's First Lady, not because the kids were Muslim, but because it seemed to be a faith school. But then, since Islam can be particularly repressive of women, perhaps a Muslim faith school was targeted.

 

[Flanman]

Here's one point of view!!

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[Star of David Bardsley]

A bloke got arrested and the town centre cordoned off in Watford due to a bomb scare yesterday. He was wearing a full burkha and veil.

Still, probably Israel's fault.

 

[Stroller]

A bloke got arrested and the town centre cordoned off in Watford due to a bomb scare yesterday. He was wearing a full burkha and veil.

Still, probably Israel's fault.

He was described as 'white' apparently.

 

[Jimbo ranger]

The point is that Islam is fundamentally contradictory to what we view as being a British way of life. We are incompatible.

This , 100 percent . The fundamentals required just are not there , completely different way of life .

 

[Rangers Til I Die]

Please consider the following.

Why does England seem hell bent on losing its identity, culture and heritage? What guilt trip has sent us down a road where we feel the need to accommodate every other culture / belief / practice to the detriment of our own?

I write 'us' but I am not English. I came here when I was two. When I started primary school, I could not speak English. I learnt a lot of English from 'Listen with Mother' at 13:45 on weekdays! Over the years, however, I learnt, grew and immersed myself in English culture including becoming a supporter of a fine English football club!

I went to Scotland about 5 years ago for a wedding and I was so impressed with the way they glory in their heritage and its right in yer face if you don't like that. We've seen that with the last election too. The Welsh and Irish are the same.

Why are the English so afraid that if they celebrate their own heritage it might offend all and sundry and this fear then paralyses our society. I sometime feel that I, as an adopted Englishman, feel more passionate about being 'English' than half the people around me.

I don't think you can have a debate like this without mentioning political correctness which is a blight on our society imo and has much to answer for.

As for Islam, my personal belief is that there are forces at work that have targeted London as relatively ripe for 'Islamisation' due to the above factors and probably other including our own law. Why did it take so long to deport Abu Hamza? Of course, the majority of Muslims are peace loving and good folks but they do not cancel out the extremists. In fact the extremists will always control the majority because of their recourse to violence

A few responses mentioned integration as one of the keys. I agree with that and would consider myself a living example of how it can work well.

 

[qprbeth]

Here's one point of view!!

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So Flanman (and KE) has it exactly right (well that is the way I interpret his post)...and it brings to the front what a moral minefield this is. A minefield which I myself cannot work through.

Muslims are often very identifiable by their garb (as were many Jews before WWII) it makes them easy targets. They are the visible spectrum of what is currently called terrorism...just as having an Irish accent was during the troubles.
A very easy target.... But that is no reason to show prejudice, we are all the same people under our clothes.

However, as a woman, I am horrified by the level of repression and indoctrination I see in many of my female muslim colleagues and their children. I see on a daily basis, a small but definite fraction of Muslim men who ignore/talk down to/show serious disrespect to women of all races/age/religious leanings. We have also had a serious HR incident regarding homophobia in this group of people. This is unacceptable. I appreciate in other countries similar things happen, it is certainly not a UK alone problem (I think we are probably more at ease than many countries)...I am fully aware of homophobia in the Southern States of the USA; the racial tension that exists all over the US, the intolerance of (any) religion by the state in China and Russia, the repression of women in India and Malaysia.

So what do we do??

I do not think it is morally correct to INSIST that people change their religious practices to enter our society, because that is fascism after all..all we can do is educated.
Education for all, but is most effective in the young, and so it will take time...

So after all this spiel, my only answer to this is education....however to do this correctly, I would get rid of ALL religious schools..RC, CoE, Jewish, Muslim...the whole lot.
We should all be in this together, enjoying each others culture, revelling in both our differences and in our similarities.

We start at the bottom, and maybe in 50 years, we will have a state in which we can all live together in peace, without fear...which would be nice

 

[Stroller]

So after all this spiel, my only answer to this is education....however to do this correctly, I would get rid of ALL religious schools..RC, CoE, Jewish, Muslim...the whole lot.

We should all be in this together, enjoying each others culture, revelling in both our differences and in our similarities.

We start at the bottom, and maybe in 50 years, we will have a state in which we can all live together in peace, without fear...which would be nice

Absolutely.

 

[Swords Hoopster.]

Why does England seem hell bent on losing its identity, culture and heritage? What guilt trip has sent us down a road where we feel the need to accommodate every other culture / belief / practice to the detriment of our own?

I touched on that in my first post mate

The fact that a lot of them are Muslims is possibly GB's fault in the first place but that doesn't lessen the impact on the current generation of "natives" who have to put up with it.