The way forward for THFC ??

[Citizen Kane.]

Good post CK. I think the truth is that the phrase, sensible football decisions, is almost an oxymoron. Over and over again PL clubs prove how unexact a science picking football players is. The very top players cost so much because of this. When you get to the level of Ronaldo, Messi, Bale, Mbappe, everyone can see how good they are so even United struggle to sign them. When you drop to the next level, it's not so obvious who will be the next Modric and perhaps the level below that, which is where Spurs are fishing it gets harder again, who will be the next Defoe.
The part of Levy's job, where he has been vulnerable, is picking the right personel, the right expert. But again look how many managers Chelsea have had, a place where money is no object, and still they struggle to find a long term successful manager. Even City have had a number of managers before 'god' arrived. Look at United and their struggle since Fergusson retired. Fortunately Ten Hag didn't live up to his name as it was only seven. Perhaps we should call him Seven Hag now.
What you really need is some luck and just hope that when that luck appears we have the right man installed to take advantage of it.

Really intriguing response Spurf.

I think you are right - football ultimately isn't an exact science, contrary to what the buffoons running VAR would have us believe. But then again, there is taking a risk and then there is doing something downright and obviously stupid. And I feel we've strayed into the latter category too often in recent years.

Appointing BMJ was the dictionary definition of a huge risk. Levy barely had his feet under the desk when we appointed a man with zero experience in any of Europe's major leagues save for two mid-table Dutch sides, the most recent of whom play in a 7,000 seater stadium. But perhaps it was precisely the fact that a genuine expert (Arnesen) advised Levy to take the risk. And we reaped the dividends, coming within a lasagne of CL football.

Then there are decisions that are downright stupid and the overwhelming majority of fans can see are stupid and doomed to failure. Replacing Poch with his polar opposite in Mourinho is one, then replacing Mourinho with the Poundland version of himself was another, then appointing Conte was (admittedly to a lesser extent) another. Then there have been micro decisions like spending £60m on Richarlison or going in to two different seasons with Harry Kane our only recognised striker.

This stuff is so obvious it is frankly amateurish and really does suggest that the person pulling the strings is literally taking pot shots and hoping for the best, which I'm sure you'll agree isn't a strategy at all.

You speak about luck and again I agree. Sometimes things are just about good timing, like appointing an empowering manager like Harry at precisely the time Ledley and Luka were hitting their peaks while youngsters like Bale, Walker and Huddlestone were emerging. Or an even better example: Poch taking over at precisely the time that all of the teams traditionally much bigger than us were simultaneously going through a patch of severe instability.

When you stumble on a rich vein of luck, surely the sensible next step is to invest in it further and turn that luck into something more permanent? Can we say in good faith that we invested in Harry? In Poch? So again, I argue that the evidence in front of us shows someone who simply doesn't understand football well enough to know what to do in such a situation, so much so that they think the answer to strengthening a title push is Ryan Nelson and Louis Saha. Or, latterly, signing no one at all for a year.

 

[The RDBD]

Tottenham Hotspur Football Club that was (yes there is still a football team in N17) is now an entertainment and sports enterprise run by accountants, their main focus is using the clubs own money to increase the value of their investment, and they can do that without any sporting success. Having a load of bean counters running your football club will never be good for delivering silverware.

[ LONG ... ish ]

So the way forward is for Spurs to not be "run by accountants" , yes ??

If so, then let us try to define a spectrum of owner types,
and state where in that spectrum the most recent owners
of Spurs are positioned.

I contend there are two extremes of the spectrum : S1 and S2.

S1 is an owner who expects all CAPEX/OPEX for club activities
to come from profits the club makes as a "business of own account" .
They do not use their own wealth, nor undertake any activity
that the club cannot afford but for which they would be personally liable.

S2 is an owner whose love for the club is such that they
will put as much of their own money in as is legally permitted
for as long as they can, or will accept personal liability for any activities
that the club cannot afford but will benefit the club immensely.


So what was Irving Scholar ??

S2 in terms of his love for the club (undeniable) .
S2 in the activities he undertook, S1 in that he put the liabilities
on the club and not himself.


Sugar ?? I would contend S1 on everything.


ENIC

- Love for the club ??
Difficult to say for Levy, but IMHO definitely S1 for Uncle Joe.

- Finances
S1 in the main, but new WHL is absolutely S2.


So Billy, what is your opinion on what is the optimum
position in the spectrum for any owner, and how you can
show this is so (in terms of S1/S2 etc) ??

 

[PowerSpurs]

Really intriguing response Spurf.

I think you are right - football ultimately isn't an exact science, contrary to what the buffoons running VAR would have us believe. But then again, there is taking a risk and then there is doing something downright and obviously stupid. And I feel we've strayed into the latter category too often in recent years.

Appointing BMJ was the dictionary definition of a huge risk. Levy barely had his feet under the desk when we appointed a man with zero experience in any of Europe's major leagues save for two mid-table Dutch sides, the most recent of whom play in a 7,000 seater stadium. But perhaps it was precisely the fact that a genuine expert (Arnesen) advised Levy to take the risk. And we reaped the dividends, coming within a lasagne of CL football.

Then there are decisions that are downright stupid and the overwhelming majority of fans can see are stupid and doomed to failure. Replacing Poch with his polar opposite in Mourinho is one, then replacing Mourinho with the Poundland version of himself was another, then appointing Conte was (admittedly to a lesser extent) another. Then there have been micro decisions like spending £60m on Richarlison or going in to two different seasons with Harry Kane our only recognised striker.

This stuff is so obvious it is frankly amateurish and really does suggest that the person pulling the strings is literally taking pot shots and hoping for the best, which I'm sure you'll agree isn't a strategy at all.

You speak about luck and again I agree. Sometimes things are just about good timing, like appointing an empowering manager like Harry at precisely the time Ledley and Luka were hitting their peaks while youngsters like Bale, Walker and Huddlestone were emerging. Or an even better example: Poch taking over at precisely the time that all of the teams traditionally much bigger than us were simultaneously going through a patch of severe instability.

When you stumble on a rich vein of luck, surely the sensible next step is to invest in it further and turn that luck into something more permanent? Can we say in good faith that we invested in Harry? In Poch? So again, I argue that the evidence in front of us shows someone who simply doesn't understand football well enough to know what to do in such a situation, so much so that they think the answer to strengthening a title push is Ryan Nelson and Louis Saha. Or, latterly, signing no one at all for a year.

Both Harry and Pochettino had very poor records in choosing players to sign. I would take the exact opposite position to you. Levy is happy to spend on players when he thinks that we have a process for identifying who to sign and not to back the whims of the manager. In fact I think one of Levy's mistakes was to back Pochettino's judgement too much.
I think the job of the Head Coach is entirely different and needs different skills from that of Head of Recruitment. Not backing the coach's whims shows a deeper understanding of football than the average fan has.

 

[PowerSpurs]

[ LONG ... ish ]

So the way forward is for Spurs to not be "run by accountants" , yes ??

If so, then let us try to define a spectrum of owner types,
and state where in that spectrum the most recent owners
of Spurs are positioned.

I contend there are two extremes of the spectrum : S1 and S2.

S1 is an owner who expects all CAPEX/OPEX for club activities
to come from profits the club makes as a "business of own account" .
They do not use their own wealth, nor undertake any activity
that the club cannot afford but for which they would be personally liable.

S2 is an owner whose love for the club is such that they
will put as much of their own money in as is legally permitted
for as long as they can, or will accept personal liability for any activities
that the club cannot afford but will benefit the club immensely.


So what was Irving Scholar ??

S2 in terms of his love for the club (undeniable) .
S2 in the activities he undertook, S1 in that he put the liabilities
on the club and not himself.


Sugar ?? I would contend S1 on everything.


ENIC

- Love for the club ??
Difficult to say for Levy, but IMHO definitely S1 for Uncle Joe.

- Finances
S1 in the main, but new WHL is absolutely S2.


So Billy, what is your opinion on what is the optimum
position in the spectrum for any owner, and how you can
show this is so (in terms of S1/S2 etc) ??

There are several club owners in a completely different category. No love for their club or even football but prepared to spend their money to get adulation and reflected glory.
I don't have anything against such an owner if their money was acquired ethically but I've yet to find one that meets that test.

 

[humanbeingincroydon]

Both Harry and Pochettino had very poor records in choosing players to sign. I would take the exact opposite position to you. Levy is happy to spend on players when he thinks that we have a process for identifying who to sign and not to back the whims of the manager. In fact I think one of Levy's mistakes was to back Pochettino's judgement too much.
I think the job of the Head Coach is entirely different and needs different skills from that of Head of Recruitment. Not backing the coach's whims shows a deeper understanding of football than the average fan has.

The fact that bankruptspurs is endlessly tweeting about how sacking Paratici is clearly the way forward underlines the issue: too many of our fanbase look for a scapegoat for problems as opposed to the fundamental reasons for the problems

Have there been times when the DoF and our problems have been intertwined? Absolutely, look no further than Comolli for numerous reasons why that can be said, but our fanbase's bizarre fixation with blaming Hitchen (not "Hitchens"...) and now Paratici underlines the issue of moaning - not least because the moaners tend to tag Levy and ENIC in their tweets, and I have long wondered if that is what is filtering upstairs

 

[remembercolinlee]

Both Harry and Pochettino had very poor records in choosing players to sign. I would take the exact opposite position to you. Levy is happy to spend on players when he thinks that we have a process for identifying who to sign and not to back the whims of the manager. In fact I think one of Levy's mistakes was to back Pochettino's judgement too much.
I think the job of the Head Coach is entirely different and needs different skills from that of Head of Recruitment. Not backing the coach's whims shows a deeper understanding of football than the average fan has.

I get what your saying but why appoint two managers who have been used to getting any player they demand as our managers in the past 4 yrs?

 

[Spurf]

Both Harry and Pochettino had very poor records in choosing players to sign. I would take the exact opposite position to you. Levy is happy to spend on players when he thinks that we have a process for identifying who to sign and not to back the whims of the manager. In fact I think one of Levy's mistakes was to back Pochettino's judgement too much.
I think the job of the Head Coach is entirely different and needs different skills from that of Head of Recruitment. Not backing the coach's whims shows a deeper understanding of football than the average fan has.

Harry Redknapp has an excellent record of choosing players it is one of his strongest skills. If we are talking whims then Levy has those doesn't he? Mourinho? Conte? AVB? who picked those managers? On the other hand surely a football manager should have whims shouldn't he, otherwise known as aspirations and ambition.

 

[PowerSpurs]

I get what your saying but why appoint two managers who have been used to getting any player they demand as our managers in the past 4 yrs?

Mourinho was on record as saying he wanted the opportunity to work with the players we already had.
As for Conte...if he can win leagues despite being allowed to buy dross, perhaps he will have a better chance if he sticks to coaching.
It remains a fact that our squad is the sixth most expensive in the PL so coming fourth might actually be a good result.

 

[Spurf]

Really intriguing response Spurf.

I think you are right - football ultimately isn't an exact science, contrary to what the buffoons running VAR would have us believe. But then again, there is taking a risk and then there is doing something downright and obviously stupid. And I feel we've strayed into the latter category too often in recent years.

Appointing BMJ was the dictionary definition of a huge risk. Levy barely had his feet under the desk when we appointed a man with zero experience in any of Europe's major leagues save for two mid-table Dutch sides, the most recent of whom play in a 7,000 seater stadium. But perhaps it was precisely the fact that a genuine expert (Arnesen) advised Levy to take the risk. And we reaped the dividends, coming within a lasagne of CL football.

Then there are decisions that are downright stupid and the overwhelming majority of fans can see are stupid and doomed to failure. Replacing Poch with his polar opposite in Mourinho is one, then replacing Mourinho with the Poundland version of himself was another, then appointing Conte was (admittedly to a lesser extent) another. Then there have been micro decisions like spending £60m on Richarlison or going in to two different seasons with Harry Kane our only recognised striker.

This stuff is so obvious it is frankly amateurish and really does suggest that the person pulling the strings is literally taking pot shots and hoping for the best, which I'm sure you'll agree isn't a strategy at all.

You speak about luck and again I agree. Sometimes things are just about good timing, like appointing an empowering manager like Harry at precisely the time Ledley and Luka were hitting their peaks while youngsters like Bale, Walker and Huddlestone were emerging. Or an even better example: Poch taking over at precisely the time that all of the teams traditionally much bigger than us were simultaneously going through a patch of severe instability.

When you stumble on a rich vein of luck, surely the sensible next step is to invest in it further and turn that luck into something more permanent? Can we say in good faith that we invested in Harry? In Poch? So again, I argue that the evidence in front of us shows someone who simply doesn't understand football well enough to know what to do in such a situation, so much so that they think the answer to strengthening a title push is Ryan Nelson and Louis Saha. Or, latterly, signing no one at all for a year.

Agree, but who does understand football well enough? Different people understand some parts of football but I would have to go back to Shankly or Clough to find real understanding of football in a manager and I would exclude Fergusson because I believe he understood people more than football tactics for example. It's interesting that Shankly and Clough both insisted that football was a simple game. "Put the ball in the net, well discuss the details later" Shankly. Or Clough " play the ball on the ground, if god had meant football to be played in the sky he would have put grass up there"
OK football is more complex now with the obsession for formations (and all the worse for it) but what underlies is a simple game so the ability to pick players and then motivate them are perhaps the most important skills. Levy has to pick the man who can do that and maybe he is too reliant on records rather than observation but I don't think he's any better or any worse than any other chairman in the PL.

 

[PowerSpurs]

Harry Redknapp has an excellent record of choosing players it is one of his strongest skills. If we are talking whims then Levy has those doesn't he? Mourinho? Conte? AVB? who picked those managers? On the other hand surely a football manager should have whims shouldn't he, otherwise known as aspirations and ambition.

Conte and AVB have the two best league records of any Spurs manager ever so they were both good appointments.
I would be interested to see your reasoning on Harry's player selection...almost none of the signings he made for us were a success.
Of course the coach ought to have aspirations and ambition but there is no reason to suspect he will be better at choosing transfer targets than a dedicated DoF or Head of Recruitment. He simply doesn't have the time to do the work.
Mind you I don't think any club can have a long term edge in recruitment...it's quite an efficient market so hard to beat.

 

[Spurf]

Conte and AVB have the two best league records of any Spurs manager ever so they were both good appointments.
I would be interested to see your reasoning on Harry's player selection...almost none of the signings he made for us were a success.
Of course the coach ought to have aspirations and ambition but there is no reason to suspect he will be better at choosing transfer targets than a dedicated DoF or Head of Recruitment. He simply doesn't have the time to do the work.
Mind you I don't think any club can have a long term edge in recruitment...it's quite an efficient market so hard to beat.

He didn't make any signings for us just agreed when players were offered to him. His record at Portsmouth, Southampton and West Ham where he did make signings will show you his abilities. Oh he did bring Defoe back, was that bad? There is no reason to suspect anyone, that's my point. All Levy can do is look at track records or listen to his scouts. What about our scouts how well are they doing? I wonder if Spurcat can tell us how that situation is. Are they listened too?

 

[Spurf]

Conte and AVB have the two best league records of any Spurs manager ever so they were both good appointments.
I would be interested to see your reasoning on Harry's player selection...almost none of the signings he made for us were a success.
Of course the coach ought to have aspirations and ambition but there is no reason to suspect he will be better at choosing transfer targets than a dedicated DoF or Head of Recruitment. He simply doesn't have the time to do the work.
Mind you I don't think any club can have a long term edge in recruitment...it's quite an efficient market so hard to beat.

If AVB has the best record then it proves to me what a waste of time records are.

 

["Thanks for that Brian"]

Mourinho was on record as saying he wanted the opportunity to work with the players we already had.
As for Conte...if he can win leagues despite being allowed to buy dross, perhaps he will have a better chance if he sticks to coaching.
It remains a fact that our squad is the sixth most expensive in the PL so coming fourth might actually be a good result.

Mourinho did say that before accepting a very well paid job in his favourite City, London. A lot of people, including myself and others on here, didn't believe him. If Daniel Levy did, he's been extremely naive.

Mourinho has always spent a lot and nothing much is his fault or responsibility, if/when it doesn't work. Levy has made a number of poor appointments and Mourinho is only slightly behind Nuno and Santini as being damned from the off.

 

[humanbeingincroydon]

Agree, but who does understand football well enough? Different people understand some parts of football but I would have to go back to Shankly or Clough to find real understanding of football in a manager and I would exclude Fergusson because I believe he understood people more than football tactics for example. It's interesting that Shankly and Clough both insisted that football was a simple game. "Put the ball in the net, well discuss the details later" Shankly. Or Clough " play the ball on the ground, if god had meant football to be played in the sky he would have put grass up there"
OK football is more complex now with the obsession for formations (and all the worse for it) but what underlies is a simple game so the ability to pick players and then motivate them are perhaps the most important skills. Levy has to pick the man who can do that and maybe he is too reliant on records rather than observation but I don't think he's any better or any worse than any other chairman in the PL.

The issue with that Clough quote is it betrays he had a pretty easy to identify system which followed him through his time at Derby and Forest: FBs who could move the ball at pace, tricksy wingers who could unlock an opponent's defence, supported by a midfield pairing high on workrate to give the wide players a platform to get forward, while at the back they had a strong keeper and a pair of CBs who could stop a tank

Ironically, for all the talk of Wenger changing English football, his first title-winning Arsenal team was built on the same principles as Clough's: Seaman for Shilton, Adams and Keown for Larry Lloyd & Kenny Burns, Petit for McGovern, Viera for Gemmill, Overmars for Robertson

 

[Spurlock]

What was the logic in sacking Jose just before a cup final? Id understand ifKlipp was coming in but it was Ryan Mason

Levy is a clown whenever it involves Football

 

[humanbeingincroydon]

What was the logic in sacking Jose just before a cup final? Id understand ifKlipp was coming in but it was Ryan Mason

Levy is a clown whenever it involves Football

IIRC, that moment was the ideal time to sack him for the minimal amount of compensation as we were 8th in the table and didn't have European football, as those were both terms of his contract he wasn't fulfilling

In other words, the team should've been ****ter a month or two previously so we could've sacked him after the Dinamo Zagreb second leg to take advantage of those same conditions

 

[PowerSpurs]

My summary of the way forward for the club:
Continue growing the revenue by maximising value creation from the stadium and commercial income.
Try to sell a stake in the club to create a pool of cash to improve the team.
Spend the revenue and any additional capital on buying and paying the best players we can get and management and staff to coach them and improve the academy.

 

[KingHotspur]

My summary of the way forward for the club:
Continue growing the revenue by maximising value creation from the stadium and commercial income.
Try to sell a stake in the club to create a pool of cash to improve the team.
Spend the revenue and any additional capital on buying and paying the best players we can get and management and staff to coach them and improve the academy.

Is that not they’ve been doing already though?

 

[The RDBD]

There are several club owners in a completely different category. No love for their club or even football but prepared to spend their money to get adulation and reflected glory.
I don't have anything against such an owner if their money was acquired ethically but I've yet to find one that meets that test.

So call the following owner S3 :

- No love for the club nor even football
- acquired their personal wealth thru non-corrupt means
- prepared to spend said wealth to get iradulation and #reflected glory'


Is S3 now the other extreme of the spectrum to S1,
and S2 is now somewhere in between ??

Ori is S3 somewhere between S1 and S2 ??

 

[The RDBD]

If AVB has the best record then it proves to me what a waste of time records are.

AVB. Timmy etc have managerial win stats that
were eloquently shown by lennypops to be
statistically not significant (some of them did not
even survive even simpler "robustness" analysis) .

Which means those that seek to cite said stats
do not have a basic understanding of statistics,
or do and continue to do so for unclear reasons.