The way forward for THFC ??

[RRich]

Some also think this.
Whether that is a majority opinion (consequences therein etc)
is the kind of thing I hope this article will show.


"Unless we spend Top 2 big we’ll always be in that 3-6 placings."

2016-17 would be a counter-argument to that
(granted that N consecutive seasons were required to
get the squad to what Pochettino had for 2015-16) .


"Hell to pay if we finish 6th playing dogshit defensive football though."

Indeed.


"If it gets CL football then fine."

For how many consecutive seasons would supporters
tolerate that though ( !"rinse repeat" seasons of Portu-ball etc
just to be in the CL) ??

I think we’re doing something massively right if our gripe becomes ‘we only get into CL each year’. To me that’s amazing given the crap I saw from 1995 to 2010 as a youngster.

I’d take it. The way I see it is…what is the alternative? (Win the EPL, I can’t see it happening for a while but I’m confident it will happen before 2030).

In it for the long haul, like our Harry.
Lol

 

[RRich]

I think the supporters on the whole are a bit passive and a disappointment, especially the match goers.

20 plus years of ENIC have put us, some of us in our place and convinced us trophies don’t really matter

so maybe if the fans can start priding themselves with a real desire for silverware instead of this ‘so long as we knock it about a bit’ I’m happy, attitude.

Maybe the aura can start to change….like I said not everyone but enough are still passive about the glory.

I must admit the atmosphere is about as lively as watching a soft porn movie in a cinema.

 

[Spurlock]

Completely disagree.
Our fans have been excellent, particularly away from home.
The fans are not the issue imo

Away fans can't be compared to home fans...away fans are great...home fans are **** on the whole...quiet...probably fapping about the pint glasses and other gimmicks

You think our fans are tremendous...I'm talking decibels I think you're talking loyalty etc... personally I think they are meh...they are no Yellow wall of Dortmund or Anfield on a Euro night...maybe on the rare occasion but teams don't turn up thinking the crowd is going to be a major factor.

It's not the issue but it's an issue for me


The issue is Levy/ENiC

 

[Spurlock]

I think we’re doing something massively right if our gripe becomes ‘we only get into CL each year’. To me that’s amazing given the crap I saw from 1995 to 2010 as a youngster.

I’d take it. The way I see it is…what is the alternative? (Win the EPL, I can’t see it happening for a while but I’m confident it will happen before 2030).

In it for the long haul, like our Harry.
Lol

Lol...I'm 47....40 of them supporting Spurs

Your interpretation of 'long haul' must be very different to mine

 

[The Huddlefro]

5. Player acquisition

a) Academy

The adademy is definitely not functioning well.
If you consider that from Arry 2010 to Pochettino 2016, all the
following players came into the senior squad :

- Walker
- Rose
- Livermore
- Caulker
- Naughton
- Townsend
- Bentaleb
- Mason
- Kane
- Winks


Regardless of what you think of their quality or longevity, that is
a decent number of players that have come thru the pipeline.

Those that had longevity, have served the club well.

Those that did not, it appears that at the very worst that after
selling them the nett cost to the club was "zero sum" .

In recent times we have had who : Skipp ??


b) Scouting

I cannot say how good/bad the Spurs scouting networks are wrt to
their peers (someone such as Spurcat would be far more ITK on this) .

Are the networks today capable of finding a Berbatov, Modric etc
before others become aware of them ??

How do the networks discern in advance that some players are too fragile
for PL longevity (Lamela, GLC etc) or will be wastes of space
(NDombele etc) ??


c) Route to the seniors

There has to be honesty on this, for academy prospects (Marcus Edwards
etc) , and signings (Spence etc) .

Should there be a "cut off" age where you "use it or lose it" ??
If a player by age X has not made at least Y starts for the seniors,
then by default you have to assume they have no future at the club ??


d) The market place

Transfer/wage costs are what they are : the market decides.
I respect the "Levying" side of things ( "add-on" triggers etc) . but the
finances are now getting to the level where the old ways are not
so vital (unless the seller is taking the p*ss etc) .

If the money side is sorted, is the club an attractive proposition ??
Could a Bale. Dele Alli etc be persuaded to join Spurs now over others ??


Excutive summary :

A1 - get the academy pipeline flow rate back to pre 2016 levels.

A2 - have a "use it of lose it" regime for the youngsters - but be
CONSISTENT with it

A3 - develop more prescient analytics for overseas signing prospects

A4 - the more brutal Levying tactics should be the exceptio
rather than the rule

On the academy, off the top of my head since your cutoff - Skipp, Tanganga, Walker-Peters. Then you’ve got players like Scarlett and Parrott and White who have been around the squad with occasional playing time but are mainly on loan. Austin and Whiteman as the two backup keepers. Then there’s the likes of Carter-Vickers who didn’t have a lot of games with us but moved on and has had success. Devine needs a loan badly but for admin reasons it’s been beneficial to keep him around until next season. But he’s played and scored for us.

I don’t think the academy issue is one of quality, it’s one of pathway. As you and others have identified, we don’t seem to have good planning for young players, whether purchased or from the academy. It would be hugely beneficial to explore a deeper relationship with a club on the continent to serve as a proving ground for young players and even managers, as other major clubs are increasingly doing. But this feeds off a wider strategy at the club that’s missing, which is really settling on a footballing identity and embedding it throughout the system.

 

[The RDBD]

6. Supporters

a) With 66% more spectators than of old, new WHL can be
quite the arena for the home team (by many accounts the
atmosphere for the 2021-22 home NLD was utterly ferocious) .

However with those extra supporters comes the prospect
of the home crowd being far more loud in their dislike
for what is being delivered on pitch by both the players
and the owners. More so given the cost of ticket prices
for Spurs in particular.


b) On the "tourist" side of things, the club needs those
tickets to be going to the rcls of this world, who :

- will attend when the opportunity arises + can afford to do so

- sing their hearts out in support of the team


I suspect it may be possible to have an equivalent of the
ST waiting list, but the list is for those wanting to
attend whatever games they can (no intent to be an ST holder) .

ST ticket holders who imdicate they will not be attending get their
seats offered to those on said waiting list.

The offer process should be statistically uniform, but you could
factor in some weighting bias (those who are denied home tickets
but go to away games, those not on the ST list but attended many
games during the Wemnley lease etc) .


c) On the ticket pricing, is there some leeway for the club
to reduce ticket prices ??

For example, if Spurs were to finish PL top 4 + reach the
CL final, could some of the unplanned profit increase for that
season be used to reduce prices for the next season ??


Executive summary :

A1 - develop an equitable regime for getting tickets to the
rcls of this world

A2 - if a (non-insulting) gesture on ticket price reduction is
possible on a per season basis, then do it

 

[Spurf]

The way forward has to centre around manager and players. Although changes to the PL structure or Euro leagues could radically alter the picture. The financial side is as good as you might expect, it's not so many years ago the club was facing bankruptcy so in this regard ENIC have done a very fine job.
When it comes to managers the story is not so good. It's a modern phenomenon that PL clubs change their managers at short intervals. They behave like alcoholics always looking for the next fix, in this case new manager bounce, and in Spurs case clearing relying on reputation to make these choices. Does it work? In manager count, not bad but in years/seasons it's chronic. I would argue that taking on a manager who was not prepared to commit to 5 years was essentially wrong. Spurs should not be having to crawl to a manager 'Oh please be our manager' We are one of the top 10 clubs in the world. Act like it!
DOF has to be the way to go but we must pay attention to weaknesses in the team and not sign yet another forward while neglecting serious issues in defence. Build from the back is one of the basics of the game, you can't ignore that Spurs without paying a price, and our goals conceded this season tells that story.
Employ a progressive manager and get the DOF to find players that are needed using an effective scouting system. Clubs like Brighton, Leicester and Brentford can do it, Spurs should be doing it too.
And stop chopping and changing playing styles if we are just going to be top 4 and not number 1 then we can be top of football style. This is what Spurs were famous for while dour Arsenal and Leeds were winning 1 - 0 Spurs were playing the football that people wanted to see. Look at the reaction to modern day Leeds when Bielsa was there.
I watch football to be diverted and entertained not to fulfil some lacking inner need. You are paid like entertainers SO ENTERTAIN!

 

[Spurf]

How is it by the way, that we have an Italian DOF and Italian Manager and Italian asst. coach and we have a **** defence?

The Italians no more about defending than anybody in world football. So what's happening at Spurs?

 

[PleaseNotPoll]

I think the supporters on the whole are a bit passive and a disappointment, especially the match goers.

20 plus years of ENIC have put us, some of us in our place and convinced us trophies don’t really matter

It's really nothing to do with that, as a match goer.

The football is ****. That's it.
People get up for the good bits, then get bored when we don't touch the ball for 10 minutes.
It's even worse now, as we're not expecting anything when Son or Kulusevski get it.

 

[littleDinosaurLuke]

Ironically, the most passive fans sem to come from teams who expect success

Bayern fans are borderline creepy in how passive they are when walking to another Bundesliga title, while The Sheikh Mansour Team fans are so passive their forum on here is deader than Dilbert

Like Arsenal, City’s fans also dress like empty seats

 

[humanbeingincroydon]

How is it by the way, that we have an Italian DOF and Italian Manager and Italian asst. coach and we have a **** defence?

The Italians no more about defending than anybody in world football. So what's happening at Spurs?

Short version: square pegs, round holes

Long version: Conte's back three requires very specific players to work. The CCB needs to be a good passer to get moves under way as Luiz did at Chelsea and De Vrij at Inter, one CB needs to be able to move the ball themselves like Azpilcueta at Chelsea or Bastoni at Inter, and one needs to be static like Cahill at Chelsea or Skriniar at Inter. And that's where the issues start, as Romero is like-for-like with Azpilcueta/Bastoni, but Dier doesn't have the comparable passing, while Conte clearly had to tweak his plan because none of our other CBs fit the static mold, as Davies, Lenglet and Tanganga are all mobile CBs to varying degrees, while Sanchez is technically the static CB but needs his pace to make up for the errors he makes - which is hardly ideal for a counter-based system. As a result this is why individual errors have been so fatal for us all season, because too many players are playing roles that don't suit their skillsets for various reasons, which increases the chance of brainfarts - and our squad management further heightens these chances, as demonstrated in recent games by Tanganga and Sanchez looking rusty in the early going of games due to their lack of minutes, and then the mistakes happen

 

[Dier Hard]

Away fans can't be compared to home fans...away fans are great...home fans are **** on the whole...quiet...probably fapping about the pint glasses and other gimmicks

You think our fans are tremendous...I'm talking decibels I think you're talking loyalty etc... personally I think they are meh...they are no Yellow wall of Dortmund or Anfield on a Euro night...maybe on the rare occasion but teams don't turn up thinking the crowd is going to be a major factor.

It's not the issue but it's an issue for me


The issue is Levy/ENiC

English fans in general are ****, mate. There’s not a single set of English supporters I'm jealous of - Anfield European nights included.

As for comparing with Dortmund, it's a world of difference in Europe in general let alone there. They don't rip off their fans, cheapest season ticket is about £180 and that's in the standing sections, their most expensive were less than our cheapest ones the last time I checked. Most of Europe puts England to shame with regards to match tickets and I think it plays a huge part in generating great atmospheres, if you ain't being extorted you go with less expectations and are able to enjoy yourself far better.

 

[PleaseNotPoll]

English fans in general are ****, mate. There’s not a single set of English supporters I'm jealous of - Anfield European nights included.

As for comparing with Dortmund, it's a world of difference in Europe in general let alone there. They don't rip off their fans, cheapest season ticket is about £180 and that's in the standing sections, their most expensive were less than our cheapest ones the last time I checked. Most of Europe puts England to shame with regards to match tickets and I think it plays a huge part in generating great atmospheres, if you ain't being extorted you go with less expectations and are able to enjoy yourself far better.

Germany are generally the exception, though.
Cheap tickets, decently priced food and drink and lots of sold out stadiums.

Most other countries struggle to get anywhere near our level of support, though.
English prices are ridiculous, but the grounds are still full and that's going down levels.
Derby, Ipswich and Sheffield Wednesday are all getting 24-27k every week in League One.
That's better than most of Serie A. Their top 7 get more and that's it.

Plenty of Premier League tourists, but that explains part of the atmosphere issue.
The pricing explains most of the rest of it, in my opinion.
Some **** defensive football does the rest.

 

[Dier Hard]

Germany are generally the exception, though.
Cheap tickets, decently priced food and drink and lots of sold out stadiums.

Most other countries struggle to get anywhere near our level of support, though.
English prices are ridiculous, but the grounds are still full and that's going down levels.
Derby, Ipswich and Sheffield Wednesday are all getting 24-27k every week in League One.
That's better than most of Serie A. Their top 7 get more and that's it.

Plenty of Premier League tourists, but that explains part of the atmosphere issue.
The pricing explains most of the rest of it, in my opinion.
Some **** defensive football does the rest.

Many of Europe's other leagues and teams have cheap season tickets too, you can get a cheap Ajax one for about £250 and an Inter one for about £350. I think one or two super clubs have high prices, somewhat understandably considering their general success but most of Europe is pretty easily affordable in comparison to England.

In terms of actual attendances and support I'd agree, England more or less leads the way but in terms of atmosphere we're comfortably towards the bottom of the pile, if not at the bottom.

 

[humanbeingincroydon]

English fans in general are ****, mate. There’s not a single set of English supporters I'm jealous of - Anfield European nights included.

As for comparing with Dortmund, it's a world of difference in Europe in general let alone there. They don't rip off their fans, cheapest season ticket is about £180 and that's in the standing sections, their most expensive were less than our cheapest ones the last time I checked. Most of Europe puts England to shame with regards to match tickets and I think it plays a huge part in generating great atmospheres, if you ain't being extorted you go with less expectations and are able to enjoy yourself far better.

Could be worse, I remember Man Utd fans in the 90s where if the ball was off the ground at knee height you'd have hundreds of their fans yell "Handball!" in unison, which you couldn't miss as the pitchside mics picked it up

It's one thing if the ball is at waist or chest height, but the only way the ball could be at knee height and actually qualify as a handball in Manchester at that time was if there was a kickabout among home fans outside Maine Road before kickoff

 

[PleaseNotPoll]

Many of Europe's other leagues and teams have cheap season tickets too, you can get a cheap Ajax one for about £250 and an Inter one for about £350. I think one or two super clubs have high prices, somewhat understandably considering their general success but most of Europe is pretty easily affordable in comparison to England.

In terms of actual attendances and support I'd agree, England more or less leads the way but in terms of atmosphere we're comfortably towards the bottom of the pile, if not at the bottom.

It's two sides of the same coin though, for me.
We have lots of people that go to games because it's an event, not for the football.
If they didn't go, then we'd have lower attendances and better atmospheres, overall.

Ajax and Inter don't sell out games, bizarrely.
Pre-covid (2018/19) the Italians were averaging about 57-58k in an 80k stadium.
Their prices are lower because they can't sell the tickets as it is.

 

[humanbeingincroydon]

It's two sides of the same coin though, for me.
We have lots of people that go to games because it's an event, not for the football.
If they didn't go, then we'd have lower attendances and better atmospheres, overall.

Ajax and Inter don't sell out games, bizarrely.
Pre-covid (2018/19) the Italians were averaging about 57-58k in an 80k stadium.
Their prices are lower because they can't sell the tickets as it is.

Remember a few seasons ago when we played Napoli, and their stadium looked like something out of post apocalyptic fiction?

Italian clubs have been having trouble filling their grounds for years, which is why Juve's stadium is actually smaller than the Delli Alpi

 

[humanbeingincroydon]

Funnily enough I don't recall hearing Chelsea or West Ham fans being complimentary about us 25 years ago...

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Perhaps the way forward involves the shoutiest section of our fanbase living in this place called "reality" before they embarrass themselves by thinking a whole eight people with a banner featuring at least one SPAG error is a show of force

 

[PleaseNotPoll]

Funnily enough I don't recall hearing Chelsea or West Ham fans being complimentary about us 25 years ago...

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Perhaps the way forward involves the shoutiest section of our fanbase living in this place called "reality" before they embarrass themselves by thinking a whole eight people with a banner featuring at least one SPAG error is a show of force

Yeah, I can't think why people didn't take the piss out of us on social media before that.
Those Usenet users were really slacking.

 

[The RDBD]

Yeah, I can't think why people didn't take the piss out of us on social media before that.
Those Usenet users were really slacking.

1. Leave us out of it, pal.

2. Prior to the mass public access to the Internet,
the Usenet football groups were very civil
(unsurprisingly - given access was via academia
and big companies - "reputation management" etc) .