Pardew Staying?

[Graham Carr's Binoculars]

Unfortunately he did not buy many of them, Walter Smith did

Stubbs, Weir, Ferguson, Gravesen, Campbell. Unsworth I believe preceded both.

I think he may signed Martyn though.

It was worth a go to have a roundabout pop at Pards. Bit clutchy at straws though.

I do think signings under Pardew have lacked character though. Obviously he wanted to retain Nolan, Carroll and Barton. He also fought hard to keep Colo and Ba. So I think he does recognise what elements you also need in team make up. Unfortunately it is often taken out his hands i.e. Carroll - money couldn't be turned down as it was insane, Nolan likewise and they wanted him off the wage bill and if he wanted Cabaye had to go, Barton - Joey is Joey, Ba - had a release clause.

But why didn't he he replace them with players of similar character??? He's signed something like 15 players for us. It's not really clutching at straws when he's signed as many players as that and failed to add sufficient steel to the team.

Other than overlooking Anita is there anything that you feel Pardew IS to blame for???

 

[Warmir Pouchov]

But why didn't he he replace them with players of similar character??? He's signed something like 15 players for us. It's not really clutching at straws when he's signed as many players as that and failed to add sufficient steel to the team.

Other than overlooking Anita is there anything that you feel Pardew IS to blame for???

Loads this season.

- Set pieces is down to him and the coaching staff.
- Signings - Although not completely down to him, he does play a part and has signed off on this cheap produce which lacks a bit of substance.
- Anita.
- Struggling under the pressure and transmitting that to the players resulting in direct football and poor nerve stricken performances.
- Cabaye, Tiote and Sissoko not being dropped for Anita.
- Cabaye and Sissoko being pushed too far physically in that murderous end of season run.
- Not choosing between forcing Demba left or dropping Cisse at the start of the season.
- Dotting Jonas around all over the place until his level disappeared and he became the fans scapegoat.
- Not forcing Mike to sign another striker (had to be a bad blow job in Jan which caused this silly decision "Too much teeth Alan, no striker for you"

On the signings, his scout (who everyone thinks is fantastic) told him these players DID have character. I'm sure Pards would like to have brought in some domestic players where character is easier to detect, unfortunately that is not the owners policy as he doesn't like the prices etc. Llambias has confirmed this. Do you expect a Martinez or Poyet to have any further control under Ashley if they were signed?

So while there are lot of things Pardew has done wrong, I always believe looking at the whole picture rather than a witch hunt for one bloke is the more progressive strategy. Otherwise you never really cure the disease. Pardew undoubtedly needs a big look in the mirror and face some brutal home truths. However pretending this mess of a season (Europa aside) is all on him is counter productive and frankly comical in my eyes. Scouting has failed. Board level has failed. Coaching has failed. Management has failed. And though some don't want to hear it, the players have failed. Thankfully it is mainly down to small margins and easily rectifiable errors of judgement. All it needs is a few minor tweaks, honesty from all parties and a positive outlook.

 

[Graham Carr's Binoculars]

Loads this season.

- Set pieces is down to him and the coaching staff.
- Signings - Although not completely down to him, he does play a part and has signed off on this cheap produce which lacks a bit of substance.
- Anita.
- Struggling under the pressure and transmitting that to the players resulting in direct football and poor nerve stricken performances.
- Cabaye, Tiote and Sissoko not being dropped for Anita.
- Cabaye and Sissoko being pushed too far physically in that murderous end of season run.
- Not choosing between forcing Demba left or dropping Cisse at the start of the season.
- Dotting Jonas around all over the place until his level disappeared and he became the fans scapegoat.
- Not forcing Mike to sign another striker (had to be a bad blow job in Jan which caused this silly decision "Too much teeth Alan, no striker for you"

On the signings, his scout (who everyone thinks is fantastic) told him these players DID have character. I'm sure Pards would like to have brought in some domestic players where character is easier to detect, unfortunately that is not the owners policy as he doesn't like the prices etc. Llambias has confirmed this. Do you expect a Martinez or Poyet to have any further control under Ashley if they were signed?

So while there are lot of things Pardew has done wrong, I always believe looking at the whole picture rather than a witch hunt for one bloke is the more progressive strategy. Otherwise you never really cure the disease. Pardew undoubtedly needs a big look in the mirror and face some brutal home truths. However pretending this mess of a season (Europa aside) is all on him is counter productive and frankly comical in my eyes. Scouting has failed. Board level has failed. Coaching has failed. Management has failed. And though some don't want to hear it, the players have failed. Thankfully it is mainly down to small margins and easily rectifiable errors of judgement. All it needs is a few minor tweaks, honesty from all parties and a positive outlook.

He's had two years to sort set pieces, they're easily rectifable and yet he has failed. Not resting Cabaye or Sissoko is souly down to him. Shifting Jonas all over the place is again on Pardew's shoulders. Playing Cisse wide is another gaffe in which only Pardew is accountable. Style of play is again down to Pardew, last year he got all the plaudits when we played good football so this year he rightfully takes all the flack for the horse sh*t that we've produced week in, week out.

Small margins are things that would change week to week or month to month, he's made them same mistakes all season. Yes MA & DL let him down in the summer and yes we've a few more injuries than usual. We have under achieved this season at least twice as much as we over achieved last year. His win ratio is approximitely just over 30% during his time with us which roughly translates to 11 wins a season, meaning we'd then need 7 draws to just reach 40pts. So even forgetting how good last season was and how poor this one has been, his overall record over two and a half years is still ridiculously poor.

We can't change the owners and we can't suddenly get rid of all the players (players that Pardew gave the green light to sign) so the next logical step is to remove the management team as they have failed spectacularly this year and their record since they've joined when looking at games played vs wins achieved can be described as mediocre at best.

 

[Keith Fit]

He's had two years to sort set pieces, they're easily rectifable and yet he has failed. Not resting Cabaye or Sissoko is souly down to him. Shifting Jonas all over the place is again on Pardew's shoulders. Playing Cisse wide is another gaffe in which only Pardew is accountable. Style of play is again down to Pardew, last year he got all the plaudits when we played good football so this year he rightfully takes all the flack for the horse sh*t that we've produced week in, week out.

Small margins are things that would change week to week or month to month, he's made them same mistakes all season. Yes MA & DL let him down in the summer and yes we've a few more injuries than usual. We have under achieved this season at least twice as much as we over achieved last year. His win ratio is approximitely just over 30% during his time with us which roughly translates to 11 wins a season, meaning we'd then need 7 draws to just reach 40pts. So even forgetting how good last season was and how poor this one has been, his overall record over two and a half years is still ridiculously poor.

We can't change the owners and we can't suddenly get rid of all the players (players that Pardew gave the green light to sign) so the next logical step is to remove the management team as they have failed spectacularly this year and their record since they've joined when looking at games played vs wins achieved can be described as mediocre at best.

That's without mentioning the record in cups, the level of fitness and the decidedly questionable management/reliance on the youth of our team.

I understand that it's a collective failure, for sure. But which of the factors NS mention are things we can change? Is Graham Carr doing that bad a job, or would it be better to have a manager in place who actually knows what is needed? Did the board not try and rectify their approach by spending in January, is it their fault we only had one CF target lined up? Have the players failed, or have they been victims of a lack of leadership either via the dressing room or via the manager. Yes, it's a collective effort. But it's CLEARLY centred around ONE individual....

 

[Graham Carr's Binoculars]

That's without mentioning the record in cups, the level of fitness and the decidedly questionable management/reliance on the youth of our team.

I understand that it's a collective failure, for sure. But which of the factors NS mention are things we can change? Is Graham Carr doing that bad a job, or would it be better to have a manager in place who actually knows what is needed? Did the board not try and rectify their approach by spending in January, is it their fault we only had one CF target lined up? Have the players failed, or have they been victims of a lack of leadership either via the dressing room or via the manager. Yes, it's a collective effort. But it's CLEARLY centred around ONE individual....

Pretty much agree with every word of this

 

[Warmir Pouchov]

He's had two years to sort set pieces, they're easily rectifable and yet he has failed. Not resting Cabaye or Sissoko is souly down to him. Shifting Jonas all over the place is again on Pardew's shoulders. Playing Cisse wide is another gaffe in which only Pardew is accountable. Style of play is again down to Pardew, last year he got all the plaudits when we played good football so this year he rightfully takes all the flack for the horse sh*t that we've produced week in, week out.

Small margins are things that would change week to week or month to month, he's made them same mistakes all season. Yes MA & DL let him down in the summer and yes we've a few more injuries than usual. We have under achieved this season at least twice as much as we over achieved last year. His win ratio is approximitely just over 30% during his time with us which roughly translates to 11 wins a season, meaning we'd then need 7 draws to just reach 40pts. So even forgetting how good last season was and how poor this one has been, his overall record over two and a half years is still ridiculously poor.

We can't change the owners and we can't suddenly get rid of all the players (players that Pardew gave the green light to sign) so the next logical step is to remove the management team as they have failed spectacularly this year and their record since they've joined when looking at games played vs wins achieved can be described as mediocre at best.

The first paragraph is just repeating what I said I hold Pardew accountable for, not sure of the point of it to be honest?

We just disagree. He's got thing wrong at times this season and has paid heavy prices with our league form. That is the nature of the league. Roberto Martinez has got things this season, he has paid a heavy price. SAF got things last year, it cost him the league. Its the same at all clubs, patience is the key to attaining a steady level of performance. Unfortunately that is always in short supply with our support and the modern football fan. It'll be the same with the next guy, and the guy after that. Troubled times - change the manager. That's our motto and has been for a long time. Personally I'd like to buck that trend.

As for under achieving twice the amount we over achieved last year, I assume that is joke? Do you realise how hard it is to break the top 6 in this country? The 5 clubs have generally filled those top 5 slots for the past 10 years. Citeh are obviously the anomaly with their money over the last 5 seasons. Spurs have gatecrashed this the last 5 years too pushing down the likes of Everton and Liverpool, just as Villa did for a couple of years before them. The common factor to break it has been big pots of cash. We were quite unique!

Do you realise how hard it is to finish above a club like Chelsea in recent times? Do you realise how easy it is to flirt with relegation? I could go on and on. We can disagree on loads of things but that statement is just crazy talk for me.

 

[Graham Carr's Binoculars]

The first paragraph is just repeating what I said I hold Pardew accountable for, not sure of the point of it to be honest?

We just disagree. He's got thing wrong at times this season and has paid heavy prices with our league form. That is the nature of the league. Roberto Martinez has got things this season, he has paid a heavy price. SAF got things last year, it cost him the league. Its the same at all clubs, patience is the key to attaining a steady level of performance. Unfortunately that is always in short supply with our support and the modern football fan. It'll be the same with the next guy, and the guy after that. Troubled times - change the manager. That's our motto and has been for a long time. Personally I'd like to buck that trend.

As for under achieving twice the amount we over achieved last year, I assume that is joke? Do you realise how hard it is to break the top 6 in this country? The 5 clubs have generally filled those top 5 slots for the past 10 years. Citeh are obviously the anomaly with their money over the last 5 seasons. Spurs have gatecrashed this the last 5 years too pushing down the likes of Everton and Liverpool, just as Villa did for a couple of years before them. The common factor to break it has been big pots of cash. We were quite unique!

Do you realise how hard it is to finish above a club like Chelsea in recent times? Do you realise how easy it is to flirt with relegation? I could go on and on. We can disagree on loads of things but that statement is just crazy talk for me.

Not sure why it's crazy, the league is as poor as it's been for years this season and we've only avoided relegation after game number 37 and won twice away all season, once against the league's worst team and once against a Villa team that was in their worst run of form all season. In both games we scraped home.

 

[Warmir Pouchov]

Not sure why it's crazy, the league is as poor as it's been for years this season and we've only avoided relegation after game number 37 and won twice away all season, once against the league's worst team and once against a Villa team that was in their worst run of form all season. In both games we scraped home.

Sorry its just mental. Say our actual level over the two seasons is around 8th or 9th (to be generous). Its a hell of a lot more likely that you'll flirt with relegation than it is you'll finish 5th. The table does not lie. The 6 or 7 in this country has barely changed in a decade! The only time it has generally is when a club has invested huge amounts of money a la Villa, Citeh, Spurs. The exception to that rule - Newcastle. Sorry but we over achieved last year more than we under achieved this year if anything. To suggest the other way on by double is just pure crazy and there is zero evidence to back it up.

 

[Graham Carr's Binoculars]

Sorry its just mental. Say our actual level over the two seasons is around 8th or 9th (to be generous). Its a hell of a lot more likely that you'll flirt with relegation than it is you'll finish 5th. The table does not lie. The 6 or 7 in this country has barely changed in a decade! The only time it has generally is when a club has invested huge amounts of money a la Villa, Citeh, Spurs. The exception to that rule - Newcastle. Sorry but we over achieved last year more than we under achieved this year if anything. To suggest the other way on by double is just pure crazy and there is zero evidence to back it up.

We were potentially 1 game away from setting our club back 5-10 years. It's pretty much all the evidence that is needed.

 

[Warmir Pouchov]

We were potentially 1 game away from setting our club back 5-10 years. It's pretty much all the evidence that is needed.

That is not evidence to back up that statement though. Its evidence we've had a poor season. The hard evidence is that we over achieved by more last season than we underachieved this season.

 

[Graham Carr's Binoculars]

That is not evidence to back up that statement though. Its evidence we've had a poor season. The hard evidence is that we over achieved by more last season than we underachieved this season.

Of course it's evidence. In what sense is it not evidence???

Relegation would have been a complete and utter catastrophy and it very nearly happened. Would champions league qualifaction last year have changed our fortunes for the next 5-10 years? Highly unlikely, hence this year the under achievement is bigger. Our aim last year was top 8, we finished 5th so beat it by 3. Our aim this year was top 8, we currently sit 14th and could finish 17th. Our under achievement this year is criminal and much bigger than last years over achievement...even league positions show that in comparison to what our aims were.

It's clear evidence.

 

[Warmir Pouchov]

Of course it's evidence. In what sense is it not evidence???

Relegation would have been a complete and utter catastrophy and it very nearly happened. Would champions league qualifaction last year have changed our fortunes for the next 5-10 years? Highly unlikely, hence this year the under achievement is bigger. Our aim last year was top 8, we finished 5th so beat it by 3. Our aim this year was top 8, we currently sit 14th and could finish 17th. Our under achievement this year is criminal and much bigger than last years over achievement...even league positions show that in comparison to what our aims were.

It's clear evidence.

Its simply not evidence. Evidence is looking how it easy it is to fall from mid table into a relegation battle, compared to how easy it is to finish 5th. That is the only question. Looking at league positions is clearly not an accurate reflection of how the league works and far too simplistic.

You have to look at the historical and current evidence available. All historical evidence suggests that it is a lot easier to flirt with relegation for a mid table club than it is to finish 5th. The reason the evidence suggests this is the same 6 or 7 clubs occupy the top 6 or 7 slots most seasons. To break that trend, huge money is spent. Whereas most of the clubs who are in the mid table bracket have flirted with or been relegated at some time or other (including ourselves). The margin to the top 5 is huge and requires cash to break it. The margin to the lower reaches is much finer. We didn't spend cash so we must have massively over achieved. We didn't spend cash again this season and have struggled.

Whereas we have underachieved in my eyes because we have quality in the squad, the difference between last season in terms how we performed relative to our actual expectation strongly suggests the swing in performance was greater last year. It comes down to what is more likely for a middling club (position 8-17) flirting with relegation or a top 5 finish? The answer is obvious.

 

[Graham Carr's Binoculars]

Its simply not evidence. Evidence is looking how it easy it is to fall from mid table into a relegation battle, compared to how easy it is to finish 5th. That is the only question. Looking at league positions is clearly not an accurate reflection of how the league works and far too simplistic.

You have to look at the historical and current evidence available. All historical evidence suggests that it is a lot easier to flirt with relegation for a mid table club than it is to finish 5th. The reason the evidence suggests this is the same 6 or 7 clubs occupy the top 6 or 7 slots most seasons. To break that trend, huge money is spent. Whereas most of the clubs who are in the mid table bracket have flirted with or been relegated at some time or other (including ourselves). The margin to the top 5 is huge and requires cash to break it. The margin to the lower reaches is much finer. We didn't spend cash so we must have massively over achieved. We didn't spend cash again this season and have struggled.

Whereas we have underachieved in my eyes because we have quality in the squad, the difference between last season in terms how we performed relative to our actual expectation strongly suggests the swing in performance was greater last year. It comes down to what is more likely for a middling club (position 8-17) flirting with relegation or a top 5 finish? The answer is obvious.

We had a net spend bigger than Arsenal and Spurs this season!!! So that dispels the theory that it revolves all around money. Spurs don't actually spend much money, they pretty much operate a sell to buy policy like we do.

 

[Warmir Pouchov]

We had a net spend bigger than Arsenal and Surs this season!!! So that dispels the theory that it revolves all around money. Spurs don't actually spend much money, they pretty much operate a sell to buy policy like we do.

Now you are just being silly. Seriously you've dispelled absolutely zero. Have you seen the size of these two clubs squads and the depth of talent at their disposal? We don't operate on those kind of budgets. We don't pay those kinds of wages. You're picking some strange ones today, these theories have more holes in them than a packet of polos.

 

[Graham Carr's Binoculars]

Now you are just being silly. Seriously you've dispelled absolutely zero. Have you seen the size of these two clubs squads and the depth of talent at their disposal? We don't operate on those kind of budgets. We don't pay those kinds of wages. You're picking some strange ones today, these theories have more holes in them than a packet of polos.

Not really, I've given evidence based on league positions which you won't accept. I've explained that Spurs operate a sell to buy policy much like us and that relegation would have had a much worse affect than the positives of qualifying for champions league.

Our aim was 8th both seasons, one season we surpassed it by 3 places and finished 5th and if we finish 14th this season (our current position) we'll have underchieved by 6 places. However given that we're likely to lose against Arsenal that under achievement is likely to get even bigger after the final game of the season. It's not difficult to understand.

It's not my fault you aren't accepting the facts. Your evidence is based on the opinion that a team is much more unlikely to finish 5th than it is to go down, but this is subjective and impossible to back up with evidence because it's simply an opinion that can't be supported by facts.

And if I say the word "fact" one more time I'll have to change my name to Rafa

 

[Agent Bruce]

And if I say the word "fact" one more time I'll have to change my name to Rafa.

Hello Rafa.

 

[Rafa's Championship Party]

And if I say the word "fact" one more time I'll have to change my name to Rafa.

Hello Rafa.

Is that a fact Rafa.

 

[Warmir Pouchov]

Not really, I've given evidence based on league positions which you won't accept. I've explained that Spurs operate a sell to buy policy much like us and that relegation would have had a much worse affect than the positives of qualifying for champions league.

Our aim was 8th both seasons, one season we surpassed it by 3 places and finished 5th and if we finish 14th this season (our current position) we'll have underchieved by 6 places. However given that we're likely to lose against Arsenal that under achievement is likely to get even bigger after the final game of the season. It's not difficult to understand.

It's not my fault you aren't accepting the facts. Your evidence is based on the opinion that a team is much more unlikely to finish 5th than it is to go down, but this is subjective and impossible to back up with evidence because it's simply an opinion that can't be supported by facts.

And if I say the word "fact" one more time I'll have to change my name to Rafa

No you've claimed we've under achieved by twice as much as we over achieved last season. Then claimed that league placings show this, ignoring the accepted gulf between the top 4-5 clubs and everyone else. If it is as easy as you say to break the top 4 without investment, how have no clubs managed this bar ourselves in a decade? It doesn't add up. This is not opinion or subjective at all, its based on looking at a decades worth of hard evidence rather than a simple look at league placings. This website will help you understand http://www.premierleague.com/en-gb/matchday/league-table.html Basically in 10 years the top 5 has been filled by clubs from the same band of 7 clubs. Twice this trend has been bucked. Both by ourselves. Once through heavy spending on Bobby's superstar mix, and the other by Pardew breaking even. He got manager of the year for a reason, it was unthinkable what we did last year. They are the cold hard facts if you want them.

We belong in the slots from 8-17. The challenge is to ensure you're at the upper end of that, this season we have fallen short but not by a massive amount. The points total bear this out. Its been a terrible season, no one is denying that. But lets not get silly.

Our aim was 8th in Pardew's first season? 90% of our fans thought we'd be lucky to finish top 10. Many were predicting relegation! On what basis would we expect 8th? Man C, Man U, Arsenal, Chelsea, Spurs, Liverpool, Everton. Why would we automatically come next? We only came up the season before, more likely top 10 was a realistic aim.

Just accept it, your assertion we under achieved by twice as much s wrong. The facts say so Rafa.

 

[CaliToon]

To put it another way:

West Brom are currently in 8th with 48 points, to get to 5th place they would have needed 21 more points. They would drop to 17th with only 9 fewer points.

For the clubs in the 8th-17th bracket, it is clearly harder to progress to the top 5, than to have an off season and finish 17th.

I agree that we're only a few minor tweaks from being a decent side and looking to break back into the top 7. All of the main problems started after the derby imo. The mackems were always going to do well because they had a new passionate manager to shake things up. That result sapped all our confidence and turned the fans against the manager at exactly the wrong time.



(woo first post!)

 

[Lieutenant]

To put it another way:

West Brom are currently in 8th with 48 points, to get to 5th place they would have needed 21 more points. They would drop to 17th with only 9 fewer points.

For the clubs in the 8th-17th bracket, it is clearly harder to progress to the top 5, than to have an off season and finish 17th.

I agree that we're only a few minor tweaks from being a decent side and looking to break back into the top 7. All of the main problems started after the derby imo. The mackems were always going to do well because they had a new passionate manager to shake things up. That result sapped all our confidence and turned the fans against the manager at exactly the wrong time.



(woo first post!)

You do have a great point regarding the small difference from 8th to 17th. But I think the Sunderland result was the straw that broke the donkey's back after plenty terrible results and some dreadful football, we were top of the long ball table ahead of Stoke and West Ham etc the whole debacle is unacceptable.

Welcome to the forum buddy.