Pardew Staying?

[Graham Carr's Binoculars]

You mention they didn't see any youth development in his first two seasons, but then in the squad that kept them up you've named Rooney, Osman, Hibbert, Chadwick, Jeffers (on loan or not Moyes did produce him and get 8 million for doing so) & McFadden who all 9 years ago would have been kids aged 21/22 tops. Richard Wright would have been 23/24 which is also very young for a keeper.

 

[Keith Fit]

Man U hadn't won the league since the 60's. Ferguson took them to mid-table, then the top of the table. Even when they went back to lowly 11th (not exactly relegation material), they were 3rd in late Feb. The next year came the first trophy, then off they went. To my mind, it's not the same pattern, it's not flirting with relegation and it certainly wasn't about a constant pi$$-poor showing every week. Even when he was at his worst, they still beat the defending champions of the time 4-1. There is a little parity to be drawn more in terms of the relativity of failure vs expectancy, but the board stuck by him - by his own admission - because of his additional work and because there was hope, not in spite of either.

As for Moyes, I think balancing the books is imperative to Everton, not a myth! I didn't say he hasn't spent - Fellaini, Mirallas, Bilyaletdinov, etc. cost money - I said he balanced the books, as in brought more in than he bought. And that squad had a fair amount of youth who have gone on to bigger and better things. Our kids all look for the exit right now. That said, to be fair, it is probably more of a point to disprove my statement than prove it as there can be more parity drawn from his position. I stand by the comments on Arsene Wenger, though!

 

[Warmir Pouchov]

You mention they didn't see any youth development in his first two seasons, but then in the squad that kept them up you've named Rooney, Osman, Hibbert, Chadwick, Jeffers (on loan or not Moyes did produce him and get 8 million for doing so) & McFadden who all 9 years ago would have been kids aged 21/22 tops. Richard Wright would have been 23/24 which is also very young for a keeper.

They weren't produced by anything Moyes did in that time. the youth system, as Moyes says himself, was already in place when he got there.

Rooney was just a natural talent no manager could have ignored. Hibbert was nurtured well by Moyes. Quite limited in some ways but had a good solid career under Moyes. Osman is quite a late bloomer and again Moyes showed excellent patience. Jeffers, Wright and Chadwick never amounted to much. McFadden again not produced by Everton, signed by Moyes at 21ish. Do you know how many appearances those lads made starting games? Rooney 26, McFadden 11, Jeffers 5, Osman 3, Chadwick 1, Wright 4,

I'd say Pards is behind him but not that far. He hasn't bought much in the way of youth which would be one criticism I'd level at him. On the flipside he has a budget to work to. Santon is talented young man, and Haidara looks talented. He has begun to introduce Campbell. Abeid looked a talent but has had to go away to develop. Similar with Sammy. He'd like to introduce Streete but the lad can't stay fit. You couldn't really criticise Pards youth wise, its way too early.

Not a lot in it to be honest. Fergie didn't really buy many either. He worked hard with the board to get the youth system ship shape and after 5 years brought through one hell of bunch. Obviously he was quite lucky they all came at once but he also put the structure in place to allow it to happen. They've never produced the same numbers again, it was a freak occurence but they have regularly brought through younger players who have been sold on to make money. Some like Evans have made the grade. Where Fergie has been very good is acknowledging it was a freak occurence and using their might well to secure the top young talents as signings. Rooney, Ronaldo, Rafael, Smalling, Jones, Nani etc.

 

[Warmir Pouchov]

Man U hadn't won the league since the 60's. Ferguson took them to mid-table, then the top of the table. Even when they went back to lowly 11th (not exactly relegation material), they were 3rd in late Feb. The next year came the first trophy, then off they went. To my mind, it's not the same pattern, it's not flirting with relegation and it certainly wasn't about a constant pi$$-poor showing every week. Even when he was at his worst, they still beat the defending champions of the time 4-1. There is a little parity to be drawn more in terms of the relativity of failure vs expectancy, but the board stuck by him - by his own admission - because of his additional work and because there was hope, not in spite of either.

As for Moyes, I think balancing the books is imperative to Everton, not a myth! I didn't say he hasn't spent - Fellaini, Mirallas, Bilyaletdinov, etc. cost money - I said he balanced the books, as in brought more in than he bought. And that squad had a fair amount of youth who have gone on to bigger and better things. Our kids all look for the exit right now. That said, to be fair, it is probably more of a point to disprove my statement than prove it as there can be more parity drawn from his position. I stand by the comments on Arsene Wenger, though!

It wasn't Moyes system that produced the youth though. He has certainly built on it and you see the likes of Seamus Coleman, Stones, Duffy, Barkley now coming through. And he has always given them a chance when they have been good enough like Osman, Hibbert, Rooney, Anichebe. But you must bear in mind those names are over a very long period of time of 11 years.

The majority of the squad was experienced, and the majority that played were. The likes of Big Dunc, Campbell, Gravesen, Stubbs, Weir, Unsworth, Gemmil, Carsley, Martyn knew the game inside out. Moyes has undoubtedly balanced the books, as has Pardew. They have similar margins to work within.

True Man U hadn't won the league for a long time. But they were regarded as a top side. They spent a lo of money on seasoned internationals who he ended up having to offload. Many felt it was only a matter of time and they were massively underachieving. They were flirting with relegation at the xmas too in that season they finished 13th. Up until Xmas it was exactly that, a piss poor showing every week! They only ended up 5 points clear of relegation. It was tight for them. He was being slaughtered for direct football.

Wenger has never had a bad season really. A magnificent coach who has done amazing things at Arsenal. Spent a lot of money early on, but my did he spend it well! Overmars, Bergkamp, Vieira etc. No similarities with either Pardew, SAF or Moyes!

 

[Warmir Pouchov]

The whole problem with the Moyes analogy is at the time when Moyes finish 17th he was a fairly inexperienced manager and was still learning his trade. I fear with Pardew that what we see now is it and there isn't going to be much improvement. He is certainly not going the change the style of football he wants his teams to play I'm afraid.

This is the one area where you have to worry slightly with Pardew. He decided last season to put us in a transition to play better football after the more direct route of Hughton. Everyone agreed we were playing nicer passing football and the likes of HBA, Cabaye etc were having a positive effect.

This season, whilst I don't think he always looks to play long and some of it is down to a lack of confidence in the players, he has struggled to stick to a prinicpled way of playing. He has contributed to the direct stuff with his selections, and certainly his approach to dead balls.

 

[Keith Fit]

This has long been my point. We have no footballing philosophy and Pardew's team selections and substitutions only serve to confuse the matter further. Whatever the discussion about longevity, I don't see why we would benefit from giving this golden chance to Pardew.

 

[Warmir Pouchov]

This has long been my point. We have no footballing philosophy and Pardew's team selections and substitutions only serve to confuse the matter further. Whatever the discussion about longevity, I don't see why we would benefit from giving this golden chance to Pardew.

Where is the next Wenger though Nedders? The others wouldn't have (or will) survive here. Only manager I can think of who has never had a season of struggle. So much so they complain about 4th place!

 

[Keith Fit]

Where is the next Wenger though Nedders? The others wouldn't have (or will) survive here. Only manager I can think of who has never had a season of struggle. So much so they complain about 4th place!

We don't need a Wenger, surely only someone who understands not just how they want a team to play but also knows how to make it happen. We can all easily look at any number of other clubs and say "ooh, let's play like them". But this season points squarely at Pardew having no idea how to make it happen, at all. It's inexcusable that it happened, what, once?

 

[Warmir Pouchov]

We don't need a Wenger, surely only someone who understands not just how they want a team to play but also knows how to make it happen. We can all easily look at any number of other clubs and say "ooh, let's play like them". But this season points squarely at Pardew having no idea how to make it happen, at all. It's inexcusable that it happened, what, once?

Aye but he did make it happen last season. he has failed this season on many levels but that the point I'm making. Many others have had terrible seasons where they haven't looked like they can make it happen. Some bounce back a la SAF/Moyes, some just trudge deeper into the mire. Either seems unacceptable to the fans here because we don't want to wait to find out.

Don't get me wrong either, the bloke has had a catastrophic season as a manager, but he was as good in equal measure in his first season. Maybe neither is reflective of his actual ability/level, perhaps the first season is, perhaps this season is, but we seem afraid to find out. I understand that but it does make it a bit of a poisoned chalice if you are looking in as a manager.

For instance I like Poyet. I think he has the makings of a good manager and his team play nice football. However he has never come from behind once his side has been 1-0 down this season? If that was us Pards would be the problem. So is Poyet the problem or is the character of his players? If it is their character, he picked and played them?

My issue would be if all those wanting Pardew out, got a Martinez or Poyet as a replacement. They had a great first season, the football improved. Then in their 2nd full season they are beset with injuries and maybe off field problems or otherwise, and they had a season of struggle and finished in the lower reaches. The confidence was low, we struggled to play the kind of football people wanted and so on. Its all quite conceivable. Do we then sack them too and move onto the next one?

I just want the club to make a decision, the fans to back it, and then keep on backing through good times and bad until we reach a level of consistency. I don't mind if its Pards or the next guy but we can't keep doing this same dance, its holding us back.

 

[Graham Carr's Binoculars]

Aye but he did make it happen last season. he has failed this season on many levels but that the point I'm making. Many others have had terrible seasons where they haven't looked like they can make it happen. Some bounce back a la SAF/Moyes, some just trudge deeper into the mire. Either seems unacceptable to the fans here because we don't want to wait to find out.

Don't get me wrong either, the bloke has had a catastrophic season as a manager, but he was as good in equal measure in his first season. Maybe neither is reflective of his actual ability/level, perhaps the first season is, perhaps this season is, but we seem afraid to find out. I understand that but it does make it a bit of a poisoned chalice if you are looking in as a manager.

For instance I like Poyet. I think he has the makings of a good manager and his team play nice football. However he has never come from behind once his side has been 1-0 down this season? If that was us Pards would be the problem. So is Poyet the problem or is the character of his players? If it is their character, he picked and played them?

My issue would be if all those wanting Pardew out, got a Martinez or Poyet as a replacement. They had a great first season, the football improved. Then in their 2nd full season they are beset with injuries and maybe off field problems or otherwise, and they had a season of struggle and finished in the lower reaches. The confidence was low, we struggled to play the kind of football people wanted and so on. Its all quite conceivable. Do we then sack them too and move onto the next one?

I just want the club to make a decision, the fans to back it, and then keep on backing through good times and bad until we reach a level of consistency. I don't mind if its Pards or the next guy but we can't keep doing this same dance, its holding us back.

But that's the point me and Nedders and others are making. Wigan don't play long ball, even when their confidence is low and they're rock bottom of the league they still play pass and move because that is the philosophy of the manager. We don't have that, when Wigan have low confidence or Southampton at the start of the season (under Adkins) they didn't play long because their manager's don't believe in that style of play.

It's proven that Pardew thinks long ball is the way forward or is at least a viable option for us by his constant over looking of Anita for pretty much the entire second half of the season. My fear is Pardew is wasting the best squad we've had in 10-12 years and one more bad season will see that squad ripped apart. Yes we need to add some steel to it, but 2/3 players would make all the difference as would a new manager.

Under Pardew we don't seem to be working towards a long term goal. If he wants to play long ball then fine, I wouldn't agree with it but it would be fine with me as long as we didn't sign technical palyers like Cabaye, HBA, Anita etc...at least it would seem as though there is a plan. At the moment it's like Carr is dragging us in one direction with his signings and Pardew in another with his style of play.

 

[Consett Mag]

Pardew's being rather flattered IMO by comparing him to Wenger, Sir Alex and Moyes. I don't believe that Pardew really has much grasp of tactics. You could argue that when he makes a substitution when he wants to keep the score the same, by taking off usually our most creative or influential player we had, as being the tactics of a cautious/ poor in confidence manager.
I don't really accept this. It has worked all too often of ruining our game and we end up utterly hanging on for grimm death. He should have learned these lessons really, and the fact that he never changes his style tells me he's a man of limited responses.

Mike Ashley may let him stay, as we probably won't have such a high degree of injuries next season and do enough to comfortably stay in the Premiership :- which is the ambition I feel Mike Ashley has for us.

 

[Consett Mag]

copied

 

[Warmir Pouchov]

But that's the point me and Nedders and others are making. Wigan don't play long ball, even when their confidence is low and they're rock bottom of the league they still play pass and move because that is the philosophy of the manager. We don't have that, when Wigan have low confidence or Southampton at the start of the season (under Adkins) they didn't play long because their manager's don't believe in that style of play.

It's proven that Pardew thinks long ball is the way forward or is at least a viable option for us by his constant over looking of Anita for pretty much the entire second half of the season. My fear is Pardew is wasting the best squad we've had in 10-12 years and one more bad season will see that squad ripped apart. Yes we need to add some steel to it, but 2/3 players would make all the difference as would a new manager.

Under Pardew we don't seem to be working towards a long term goal. If he wants to play long ball then fine, I wouldn't agree with it but it would be fine with me as long as we didn't sign technical palyers like Cabaye, HBA, Anita etc...at least it would seem as though there is a plan. At the moment it's like Carr is dragging us in one direction with his signings and Pardew in another with his style of play.

I have watched Wigan many times this season. I have seen them punt it long. I have seem them play very very poorly. They are not having a bad season either, this is standard fare. Its a different kind of pressure on players and managers who are expected to be down there, to players who aren't. Martinez and his team would be judged by different standards here. We don't know how he will react to those pressures. He may well continue to convince the players to play the same way but there are no guarantees. Also what happens then if Martinez continues to play nice football but we just have a season of struggle and flirt with relegation anyway? People will want him sacked, that is a massive issue for me.

Don't get me wrong, Martinez clearly plays a more progressive style of play than Pardew. I prefer passing football. However Pardew clearly for me does not have a preference for long ball. He has resorted to it at times when under pressure and has struggled to get his players to stick to the plan. That is on him and I'm sure he knows that. He is not stupid though, he isn't signing all these passing footballers to play long ball over the longer term. He wants to move us that way but it is taking time. He is not like Martinez in that he'll play that way regardless of results. Clearly he sees football in a more "do whats necessary at the time" way of thinking. A bit like Moyes. Moyes played direct football in his early days. But as he correctly notes, when the money from Lescott and Rooney came to him, he had the opportunity to buy a different style of player and start the process of changing their style. Some managers stick rigidly to principles, some do what it takes. I believe firmly Pardew wants to move towards a more progressive style. How he will get there may be more like Moyes than Martinez though.

 

[Warmir Pouchov]

Pardew's being rather flattered IMO by comparing him to Wenger, Sir Alex and Moyes. I don't believe that Pardew really has much grasp of tactics. You could argue that when he makes a substitution when he wants to keep the score the same, by taking off usually our most creative or influential player we had, as being the tactics of a cautious/ poor in confidence manager.
I don't really accept this. It has worked all too often of ruining our game and we end up utterly hanging on for grimm death. He should have learned these lessons really, and the fact that he never changes his style tells me he's a man of limited responses.

Mike Ashley may let him stay, as we probably won't have such a high degree of injuries next season and do enough to comfortably stay in the Premiership :- which is the ambition I feel Mike Ashley has for us.

Substitutions - you can surely see he is hampered by his attacking/creative options though. His and the boards job to sort this out of course.

We have one PL striker -Cisse.

Then we have Shola who is sub standard and Campbell who is very raw.

We have one top class winger/attacking in HBA who is always injured. We then have Marveaux who is rarely fit, Gouffran who is learning our game and gasses out at the 60 minute mark.

In central midfield we have one creative midfielder - Cabaye. My one criticism of Pardew would be the lack of faith shown in Anita. Not a creative player as such, more a midfield dynamo but at least he has a go.

We do need 2 more strikers, you can't survive in the PL without 3 or 4 options. Genuine options not Shola! We also need to replace Jonas, and decide whether we can carry both the injury prone Marveaux and HBA. Then we need some back up for Cabaye.

 

[Graham Carr's Binoculars]

Substitutions - you can surely see he is hampered by his attacking/creative options though. His and the boards job to sort this out of course.

We have one PL striker -Cisse.

Then we have Shola who is sub standard and Campbell who is very raw.

We have one top class winger/attacking in HBA who is always injured. We then have Marveaux who is rarely fit, Gouffran who is learning our game and gasses out at the 60 minute mark.

In central midfield we have one creative midfielder - Cabaye. My one criticism of Pardew would be the lack of faith shown in Anita. Not a creative player as such, more a midfield dynamo but at least he has a go.

We do need 2 more strikers, you can't survive in the PL without 3 or 4 options. Genuine options not Shola! We also need to replace Jonas, and decide whether we can carry both the injury prone Marveaux and HBA. Then we need some back up for Cabaye.[/QUOTE]

Everyone agrees on this matter, but then only yesterday Pardew referred to Ameobi as a KEY player, how can we have faith in someone that labels Shola as one of our key players? You then have his undying love for Jonas, he's picked no matter what, so again I ask how are we meant to have faith in Pardew when he can't see the obvious things such as the two examples just given???

I honestly believe we need a new manager with not only fresh ideas but where every player starts on an even keel again because with Pardew next season you just know Jonas will be the first name on the team sheet week in, week out and Shola will be our most used sub AGAIN.

In only two and a half years Pardew has gone stale for me as he has too many favourites that are either no longer up to the required standard or never have been at the required standard.

 

[Keith Fit]

For me, any club on the up plays the same way, or has some kind of identity that is plain to see week in, week out. Whether that means your strongest XI is available or not. There is a very set method to the play, set ideas around how a set piece works. What's hugely ironic is that there's a call for stability, yet we don't even have stability in our team tactics week in, week out - it's constant knee jerk, players being shunted into any variety of positions often for less than 60 minutes every week.

Most teams will mix up the first and second strings, yet have them playing quite a distinctive style. Within that there are absolute specialists (Cisse is good at one job and one job only) and the versatile (Anita, though woefully underused, is a good example). To pick Man U, we would name RvP and Phil Jones as the two ends of the spectrum. But within Manchester United is a firm understanding of what everyone's role is within a fairly structured approach to football. What words would you use? Possession, attacking intent, pressure, fight, wingers, overlapping? You get the gist - when Manchester United turn up, or Chelsea, or Arsenal, or Spurs, or even Liverpool, Everton and - in a different way - Stoke are on the agenda, you have a rough idea what's going to happen. Does it mean it becomes predictable, easy to play against? Tell that to SAF. What we don't have is any idea what we're supposed to be doing. I have no idea why Jonas is included, what's his job? Defensive duties, discipline? These are traits which will only invite pressure, and you can only invite pressure if you have great defenders and the ability to break. Neither of which applies to us. We are so dismally easy to play against, coupled with an absolute lack of confidence, meaning we have no chance and - although I think stability would be a wonderful thing - Pardew has failed in this regard so often this season, all season.

According to a league table, we should have been the 5th best team. Alright, 6th - Chelsea clearly had an off day. And won the Champions League...but why didn't we turn up with a squad with 22 Prem quality players? I would argue we DID, but Pardew didn't manage them. Sure, a couple of injuries robbed us of some decent stand-ins, but every one of our strongest XI managed more than 20 games. We didn't win anywhere near 20 games. So what's the excuse for? We've also all overlooked one of the worst aspects of this season - Papiss Cisse on the right wing of some half-baked 4-3-3 that seemed to come from a Youtube video rather than the technical innovation of our manager.

I don't buy the theory that last season was a gauge for Pardew. I think we benefitted from abject failure of other teams as much as our own good play. Arsenal had their worst ever start under Wenger, Chelsea were awful, Liverpool even moreso and Everton went through a little transition. Don't get me wrong, it's unfair to not give Pardew some credit; he got the most out of Ba, then Cisse and did do some good things, plus most of our first XI managed more than 30 games. But this season has been so poor, so consistently poor, that I cannot see a light at the end of the tunnel. My vitriol has died down following survival, and if he's here next year - well, I'll be as optimistic as always about finishing top 4 (lols).

 

[Eddie's British Plodders]

Substitutions - you can surely see he is hampered by his attacking/creative options though. His and the boards job to sort this out of course.

We have one PL striker -Cisse.

Then we have Shola who is sub standard and Campbell who is very raw.

We have one top class winger/attacking in HBA who is always injured. We then have Marveaux who is rarely fit, Gouffran who is learning our game and gasses out at the 60 minute mark.

In central midfield we have one creative midfielder - Cabaye. My one criticism of Pardew would be the lack of faith shown in Anita. Not a creative player as such, more a midfield dynamo but at least he has a go.

We do need 2 more strikers, you can't survive in the PL without 3 or 4 options. Genuine options not Shola! We also need to replace Jonas, and decide whether we can carry both the injury prone Marveaux and HBA. Then we need some back up for Cabaye.[/QUOTE]

Everyone agrees on this matter, but then only yesterday Pardew referred to Ameobi as a KEY player, how can we have faith in someone that labels Shola as one of our key players? You then have his undying love for Jonas, he's picked no matter what, so again I ask how are we meant to have faith in Pardew when he can't see the obvious things such as the two examples just given???

I honestly believe we need a new manager with not only fresh ideas but where every player starts on an even keel again because with Pardew next season you just know Jonas will be the first name on the team sheet week in, week out and Shola will be our most used sub AGAIN.

In only two and a half years Pardew has gone stale for me as he has too many favourites that are either no longer up to the required standard or never have been at the required standard.

I'm not sure that what Pardew says can be used as an accurate barometer of what he is really thinking. Hopefully he doesn't believe what he is saying regarding Ameobi and is rather maintaining a public show of support for all our players.

I'd really hope that if Pardew does stay he strengthens the areas we need - striker x2, winger, cm, cd... Then hopefully he will no longer rely on Ameobi or Jonas to the same extent.

If he does stay, I'll give him my support in the hope that he can ditch the overly defensive shambles of tactics and get us playing attractive attacking football like we did at our best last season.

 

[Hugh Briss]

I've a feeling Pardew will be staying...

If they were going to bin him, just after the Liverpool humiliation would have been the moment.

They've waited and we've stayed up, just.

With no Europa League next season, Pardew can start making his excuses for bombing out of the domestic cups.

 

[Graham Carr's Binoculars]

I'm not sure that what Pardew says can be used as an accurate barometer of what he is really thinking. Hopefully he doesn't believe what he is saying regarding Ameobi and is rather maintaining a public show of support for all our players.

I'd really hope that if Pardew does stay he strengthens the areas we need - striker x2, winger, cm, cd... Then hopefully he will no longer rely on Ameobi or Jonas to the same extent.

If he does stay, I'll give him my support in the hope that he can ditch the overly defensive shambles of tactics and get us playing attractive attacking football like we did at our best last season.

Have to be honest and say I'm fed up of people saying Pardew didn't mean this or that when what he's said is plain for all to see. If he doesn't mean it then he shouldn't say it, simple. Also in this case I'm almost certain he means it, if he doesn't then why does Ameobi come on every game regardless of the score and the pattern of the game?

 

[Keith Fit]

Have to be honest and say I'm fed up of people saying Pardew didn't mean this or that when what he's said is plain for all to see. If he doesn't mean it then he shouldn't say it, simple. Also in this case I'm almost certain he means it, if he doesn't then why does Ameobi come on every game regardless of the score and the pattern of the game?

I think it's because there's often no pattern to the game. Pardew has it scribbled on a post it somewhere "Score 3 goals without reply in the first phase. Bring on Shola after 60 minutes (second phase). Win game. If phase one hasn't happened, go to second phase anyway. Win game."