Ozil comments

[cini65]

Well that is the difference between us. I trust Wenger is doing what he thinks is right to the best of his ability. I certainly don't have either the expertise or the knowledge of the club's circumstances to be able to even judge his decisions accurately. Half the time we don't even know what is true or false in the newspapers.

Most of the people I see criticising Wenger, I wouldn't trust to tie their own bootlaces, let alone manage a football club. And a lot of others, like yourself have either a questionable viewpoint, or questionable motives.

It worries me when a rival fan advocating division in Arsenal support, gets more likes than an Arsenal fan preaching solidarity. That seems messed up to me.

There is no reason why Wenger should be divisive, any more than Ozil should be divisive. A fan can have a different opinion on the worth of a player or manager, that happens at clubs all the time. But what is unusual is that the fans should divide so easily at Arsenal into such vitriolic, polarized factions. That isn't the fault of the manager.

As I tried to point out, there is no end to this division. Even if Wenger left, the focus would immediately shift to Kronke or Gazardis, and then if the new manager doesn't perform, to that new manager. It will not stop with Wenger leaving. It is the fundamental point that we have established in this thread. That Arsenal fans are the type that only support the club, if the club do what they want the club to do. And it isn't even about winning. The FA cup wins did NOTHING to reduce the division.

The fans are get a thrill out of being correct about their negative predictions than they do out of the team winning. As soon as we do win, that win is instantly devalued. The FA cup isn't a real trophy, the opposition played badly, and so on. That isn't normal.

This is more about Arsenal fans just being very easy to divide, because as a club our support has grown very quickly relatively recently, during the Wenger era. A lot of the fans chose Arsenal not because of any family tradition, or affinity to the club, but solely because they were winning. Our support is far more like the support for a political party than a football club. People think that they can somehow change the policies of the club, or vote for a change of leader, which is ridiculous. That just isn't the deal, as any Chelsea fan understands. A lot of Arsenal fans just don't knw how to support a football club, or what to expect from a football club.

The division at Arsenal is about the fans, not the club. Look at Newcastle. Here is a club run horrifically badly, with an appalling record for winning, yet the fans are more united than we are. They are divided a bit, but not to the extent we are at Arsenal. And they haven't won 3 trophies in 4 years.

Your arrogance is astounding. Why don't you write a rulebook on 'The Expert Way To Support a Football Club, by the self-confessed expert football fan Toledo'?

You openly write that you think you're a better fan than others. You openly wrote a week or so ago that you have absolutely no expectation of Arsenal to ever achieve anything.

Why would Bodinki have questionable viewpoints or questionable motive about the Arsenal manager and board?

You are right that this discussion goes nowhere and never does. No-one is going to change your mind and you're not going to ever change anyone else's mind. But you can't keep saying how you don't understand why people ridicule you. If you're going to have those opinions, then you just need to accept you'll get ridicule.

 

[ToledoTrumpton]

Your arrogance is astounding. Why don't you write a rulebook on 'The Expert Way To Support a Football Club, by the self-confessed expert football fan Toledo'?

You openly write that you think you're a better fan than others. You openly wrote a week or so ago that you have absolutely no expectation of Arsenal to ever achieve anything.

Why would Bodinki have questionable viewpoints or questionable motive about the Arsenal manager and board?

You are right that this discussion goes nowhere and never does. No-one is going to change your mind and you're not going to ever change anyone else's mind. But you can't keep saying how you don't understand why people ridicule you. If you're going to have those opinions, then you just need to accept you'll get ridicule.

I have been far less arrogant than you have.

As for Bodinki - he actually admits he has a questionable viewpoint.

You know cini - you really are a seriously disturbed individual. I really don't know why I receive the hate I get from you. And you really just continually prove my point. You are more affiliated with your point of view than with Arsenal.

You are more invested in believing that you are a better judge of how the club should be managed than Wenger, than you are in supporting the club.

That really is far more arrogant than I am being, in pointing out the reality that you cant possibly even judge what is and isn't detrimental to the club, and that a fan doesn't get to make that determination.

If you want that thrill play fantasy football, play Championship Manager. I'm not saying I am a better or worse fan. It isn't a competition. How the hell would you judge that? I'm just trying to point out the realities of being a fan to you.

You have players and the manager, openly pleading for solidarity, saying outright that fan unrest and negativity is hurting the club, they are constantly having to renew their loyalty, make statements that they are giving 100% and so on. It must be absolute Hell being an Arsenal player. They go out to perform knowing that one or two bad performances and they will be absolutely slated by their own fans.

You are so arrogant to believe that you are right and they are wrong and that this isn't damaging the club? Seriously, what sort of personal fantasy do you live in?

So you are a liar. You say you are don't support anything detrimental to the club, and yet you support a Wenger-Out movement that is clearly detrimental to the club. By your own definition you are insane.

 

[Bodinki]

I have been far less arrogant than you have.

In general I could not say, but as an outsider, in this discussion, I dont think you can beat saying Wenger out folk that they "Dont know how to support a football club".
Not sure it gets more arrogant than that.

 

[ToledoTrumpton]

In general I could not say, but as an outsider, in this discussion, I dont think you can beat saying Wenger out folk that they "Dont know how to support a football club".
Not sure it gets more arrogant than that.

I think We just have a young fan base who are part of an Internet generation, that think if they get 5000 likes on a post that they must be right about what they wrote. When in reality even if you get 5 million uninformed, unqualified people to agree, they are more likely to be wrong than 1 qualified expert. Young people these days are brought up to believe their opinion is important, it just isn't.

That isn't arrogance, I am just trying to point out that I accept that I as one fan, I am insignificant and don't know enough to make an informed judgement, and have no power to impose that judgement on a football team or expect them to modify their behavior. As a fan you don't have the power to contribute to the running of the club. When I say they don't know how to be a fan, that is what I mean. They don't understand the nature of the deal between fan and club.

I would say that is the opposite of arrogant.

You guys have just constantly tried to label me with negative labels throughout the thread. The entire theme of your posts has been divide, alienate and ridicule me. I don't think that pointing out that this runs counter to the normal actions of football fans of the same club, and assuming that cini doesn't know how to be a fan as a consequence, is a real reach, or particularly arrogant.

 

[Bodinki]

As a fan you don't have the power to contribute to the running of the club

That may be the case at Arsenal. And that is what is sad.
Elsewhere fans are the lifeblood of the club.

Ask Rafa Benitez what fan pressure can do to unwanted managers at Chelsea.
Yes Roman can be very trigger happy, but he listens to the fans at least, even if he doesn't always take our advice.

Do you agree with your board that this transfer window was a good one, and that this Arsenal team can win the PL?

 

[ToledoTrumpton]

That may be the case at Arsenal. And that is what is sad.
Elsewhere fans are the lifeblood of the club.

Ask Rafa Benitez what fan pressure can do to unwanted managers at Chelsea.
Yes Roman can be very trigger happy, but he listens to the fans at least, even if he doesn't always take our advice.

Do you agree with your board that this transfer window was a good one, and that this Arsenal team can win the PL?

As I said, I can't work out if I am just not expressing myself well, or you are being deliberately obtuse.

How do you know that Abramovich listens to the fans, if he doesn't always take your advice? What evidence do you have that Wenger never listens to fans? Why do you think listening to fans is a successful strategy for a club? You are giving the same evidence as people have for saying prayer works. If it only works sometimes, that isn't proof. And if the fans are divided, which fans does he listen to?

You may have a point that some clubs are better at creating the illusion that they are listening to fans, but some clubs have an easier job doing that, with their circumstances.

Yes and Yes. We are a significantly better team than last year personnel-wise (we added 2 first choice players and lost none), and we have the advantage of not playing CL football. Our biggest challenge this year as in years past, is inspiring the team with confidence, and an absence of fear of failure, which sports psychologists across all sports agree is a huge part of winning. The Arsenal fans do not help with that at all. We are 4 points behind first place and we have already been written off.

Fan negativity at Arsenal is a self-fulfilling prophesy in my opinion, because we do not give them confidence and we make the players very afraid of failure.

 

[Bodinki]

What evidence do you have that Wenger never listens to fans?

He is still there

 

[Bodinki]

How do you know that Abramovich listens to the fans,

He wanted to hire Benitez full time by all accounts.
He was given a 12 month contract with a view to making it permanent if he did well.
He did pretty well, got us back in the top 4 and we won the Europa League, but fan pressure made him change his mind as he decided that the atmosphere at the Bridge was becoming too toxic, so Roman decided not to keep him around as the negative vibes at home games were starting to affect the players.

 

[ToledoTrumpton]

He wanted to hire Benitez full time by all accounts.
He was given a 12 month contract with a view to making it permanent if he did well.
He did pretty well, got us back in the top 4 and we won the Europa League, but fan pressure made him change his mind as he decided that the atmosphere at the Bridge was becoming too toxic, so Roman decided not to keep him around as the negative vibes at home games were starting to affect the players.

As I said some clubs have an easier job creating the illusion that they are listening to fans.

 

[Bodinki]

As I said some clubs have an easier job creating the illusion that they are listening to fans.

I can really see why some people find you condescending as **** mate.
You should may be reel it in a little.
As Cini says, you wont change your mind so there is little point carrying on this discussion.

 

[ToledoTrumpton]

I can really see why some people find you condescending as **** mate.
You should may be reel it in a little.
As Cini says, you wont change your mind so there is little point carrying on this discussion.

At least I haven't tried to label you with negative labels the entire thread. You don't think you are being worse than condescending? You don't just think that your opinion is better than mine. You think just holding my opinion, makes me condescending, insane, ridiculous, arrogant, deluded and several other things I am sure.

You aren't condescending?

Having or showing a feeling of patronizing superiority - Really? I'm the one in this argument that believes myself superior to you two?

You mean you think you are condescending, insane, ridiculous, deluded and arrogant, as well? Or do you think you have shown you are superior to that? What do you think you are doing in this thread if not patronizing me?

You in particular as a Chelsea fan are patronizing me even more than cini.

 

[Bodinki]

At least I haven't tried to label you with negative labels the entire thread. You don't think you are being worse than condescending?

No, when someone is condescending, calling them condescending isnt condescending.

If that makes sense haha
Anyways, Im outski.