Ignorance and Moderation

[DT]

I have typed a few words and opinions

Yes i do this quickly ... no spin and rarely do i regret pressing the send button ... I actually find a composed grammatical correct with lashing of ego very grey and dull 9/10 times and these rarely say anything at all IMO.

Let me spell this out I am not missing any points at all ... Do the mods do a good job? Probably Yes
Yes this forum: COMMENT DEBATE CREATE Freely welcomes exactly this IMO and to apply the points that so many of you miss is:

I left this forum under a barrage of racist comments during the Euros ... no fuss but I thought then that many went beyond my line of reasonable behaviour . No mention of Gypsies during this time but i make this point now as it seems the only acceptable form of racism allowed in this hypocritical English society. There were however direct quotes with tone of voice about other european countries IMO not acceptable and Swords at the time seemed the only one on here who was speaking sense (apart from FFS 73 who completely understands at all times). I logged these comments all made maybe without thinking made as you will with or without Ignorance and Moderation. I returned earlier to then witness a very respected member use the term Tasty Totty which of course is not offensive to me but could be to any female viewer. My use of naughty words without tone of voice in the light of the latest case of football racism were of course meant to provoke ... please i ask you to consider this as i know many of points on here before they are made.

Maybe watch the programme on TV tonight by Clarke Carlisle then form your own opinion.

Me DT? somewhere between a genius and a ****** (cue the jokes but remember who just set up your jokes before you comment)

I repeat N606/QPR is by far the best read out there now and I would like to say that is down to our Mods and the quality of content on here.

Beats the Sun anyway ... although Northy may disagree ... Lovely breasts

Culture? Our Culture examine ... From the suburbs of southern French Cities to the chocolate box villages of middle England .. it exists live with it ...
Little Britain.

IMO we should all laugh at Taboo it dilutes it as IMO you do more harm by pigeon holing it. Remember I have not used insulting racist language towards another on here ( swords don't count he is already cured) nor will I as I am not a racist and I am not ashamed as most it seems because that is what unacceptable seems to mean to me.
Shame of our past, our history ... we all should be.

 

[DT]

Well, now we all know the reason for the thread. I 100% agree with Brix that there is no place on Earth (let alone this board) for the use of the word.

You need to travel a bit my friend but I agree with you that a stand should be made But ... be open be free be comfortable with all words as it really all about tone of voice ... you ban a word then the underground culture will use it ... turn on MTV anytime soon and see my point

 

[West London Willy]

IMO we should all laugh at Taboo it dilutes it as IMO you do more harm by pigeon holing it. Remember I have not used insulting racist language towards another on here ( swords don't count he is already cured) nor will I as I am not a racist and I am not ashamed as most it seems because that is what unacceptable seems to mean to me.
Shame of our past, our history ... we all should be.

No, you do more harm by desensitizing people to the harm such language can cause.

You have admitted using a grossly offensive racist word, purely with the intent to provoke. Provoke what? Laughter (as your post suggests)? You have also used a word that now has no place in describing the disabled. What are you suggesting? That if we go around using such terms, everyone who hears us should simply chuckle and go on their way, congratulating us on our spirit of self-expression?

You're sadly deluded if you think that.

Congratulations, by the way, on getting the attention and the responses your tiny, malnourished ego so obviously craves. I'm sure there's enough here for it to feed on for an hour or so....

 

[DT]

No, you do more harm by desensitizing people to the harm such language can cause.

You have admitted using a grossly offensive racist word, purely with the intent to provoke. Provoke what? Laughter (as your post suggests)? You have also used a word that now has no place in describing the disabled. What are you suggesting? That if we go around using such terms, everyone who hears us should simply chuckle and go on their way, congratulating us on our spirit of self-expression?



You're sadly deluded if you think that.

Congratulations, by the way, on getting the attention and the responses your tiny, malnourished ego so obviously craves. I'm sure there's enough here for it to feed on for an hour or so....

So am i to understand it that taking about the French and Italians in the manner they were was acceptable. Willy the words are grossly offensive in your head and these need to be attached my friend with tone of voice only then does it become offensive ... Generally seriously talk to disabled people talk to people with different skin colour ... ask their opinions I have and therefore i am very comfortable with the truth inside my body and mind.

To reinforce the points ... I nursed my severely disabled father until his death ... I am sure we all have resources and experiences to draw upon.

Willy also the one thing I have conquered with pride is a ego

 

[DT]

No, you do more harm by desensitizing people to the harm such language can cause.

You have admitted using a grossly offensive racist word, purely with the intent to provoke. Provoke what? Laughter (as your post suggests)? You have also used a word that now has no place in describing the disabled. What are you suggesting? That if we go around using such terms, everyone who hears us should simply chuckle and go on their way, congratulating us on our spirit of self-expression?

You're sadly deluded if you think that.

Congratulations, by the way, on getting the attention and the responses your tiny, malnourished ego so obviously craves. I'm sure there's enough here for it to feed on for an hour or so....

I am sorry but I strongly disagree with this and IMO this shows exactly how far past the post we have gone.

 

[West London Willy]

So am i to understand it that taking about the French and Italians in the manner they were was acceptable. Willy the words are grossly offensive in your head and these need to be attached my friend with tone of voice only then does it become offensive ... Generally seriously talk to disabled people talk to people with different skin colour ... ask their opinions I have and therefore i am very comfortable with the truth inside my body and mind.

You've seriously spoken with black people, and they say they are perfectly fine with you calling them "n****r"?

You, sir, are a liar.

 

[qprbeth]

You've seriously spoken with black people, and they say they are perfectly fine with you calling them "n****r"?

You, sir, are a liar.

Not quite...the word N****r has actuially been reclaimed by the black community, and now is used in gangsta speak...

Tupac stated (urban dictionary as source)
N****R- a black man with a slavery chain around his neck.

N***A- a black man with a gold chain on his neck


It has been reclaimed by certain oparts of the black community

 

[TheLoneRanger]

Did anyone know that Bill Bailey, the mad comedian on buzzcocks, is in fact a rangers supporter!?

Have I inadvertently discovered the true identity of DT? Both completely off their rockers, and come to think of it I've never seen both of them in the same room together?!

 

[DT]

You've seriously spoken with black people, and they say they are perfectly fine with you calling them "n****r"?

You, sir, are a liar.

I have a number of good friends and because they are good friends both french speaking and english i am afraid that all i can do is assure you honestly that we use that word liberally. If it helps you ... would i walk up to a man I didn't know and use these words with tone of voice I would expect a hostile response ... same as i would to any man in the world ... you pick the skin colour and the word. I have Sir also stood my ground in Marseille when I have been racial abused for being White Trash and in someway responsible for a history of white slavery ... it really is that simple and in the unlikely scenario that you called me a liar to my face about an issue I known to be true and you continued to do so without using your degree of your own Ignorance and Moderation then Sir I would imagine I would kick your arse

 

[Staines R's]

DT getting the attention he so desires due to his wacky zany outlook on life........BORING !!

And whilst the 'N' word might of been 'reclaimed' by the ghetto pseudo gangster kids from Hackney, I think you will find the majority of decent black people find the use of the word aborant. My father in law was called it many times in the 60's, and my Mrs still heard it in the 80's. I would hope my kids don't have to hear it in the future applied to them.

 

[KooPeeArr]

I've read this develop with interest and now feel obliged to wade in with my tuppence worth (couldn't resist for too long I'm afraid).

These are the key points as I see them:-

Free Speech - if anyone actually thinks this exists (except in the confines of one's head) then they are gravely deluded. The key is always context. Sometimes you will find a group of friends that you can express views freely with and they return in kind. There seems no limitation but that's because you know the audience. They may be seemingly happy with friendly banter about stuff in Victorian society that probably would have got your tongue sliced off) but that's only because there no persistent joking about one particular aspect to the point of not being funny. Taking it further, would people talk to elderly relatives the same way that they speak to their friends. Possibly yes (if the elderly person in question doesn't mind) but more likely no - there's self censorship that goes on, very naturally on a daily basis - in my view, this is a sign of the sophistication that elevates mankind.

Views expressed in countries that promote free speech are exposed to lawsuits and the like. It just doesn't exist. Does it bother me? No, because it has always been this way and it is the fabric of (universally) accepted morals that maintain a basic level of decorum.

The internet is in effect, no different. There is some leeway in that international boundaries are not so easily defined. The only "freedom" you'd get is by setting up your own website and spouting your opinions that way. Even then, you have to ask someone for domain space so that in itself is not without conditions. There also appears to be a storm looming with regard to ownership rights and censorship on the internet (mainly as a means of preventing piracy).

This site is no different - it belongs to someone else and we are, in effect, guests of Cyprussyd. He also chooses to use moderators to keep an eye on larger forums.

What is it that people think the appointed moderators here for? Is it to ban people who don't fit on the forum (WUMs)? Is it to prevent threads from crossing lines of acceptability? Is it to ensure smooth running and the continued enjoyment for the majority?

I'd assume, without seeing a specific remit, that it is all of these.

We banish blatant WUMs when popular opinion calls for it but simultaneous think that offensive remarks are OK until the "PC brigade" step in and those who have been silenced consider themselves a persecuted minority (the WUMs could consider themselves the same.

Most on here seem fairly relaxed about what gets said (we can just about deduce the context with which everything gets said although not always) but even if the popular opinion is that "anything goes" then that is potentially to the exclusion of a wider audience and could be people that have been persecuted themselves for something that is not reasonable.

I appreciate the context that things get said but, would someone, for example, who has recently been subjected to a racial attack, consider comments that are said in jest/making a social comment about taboos, funny? We don't know the whole audience that we are stating our thoughts and opinions to and so should draw a sensible line in terms of what is allowable.

I also appreciate the though about desensitising taboo words that that in itself is based on the assumption that everyone can use rationale in interpreting the intent (would you tell small children to use the n-word) and that there is no long standing hurt caused by the origin of the words in question (usually there is countless years of oppression that goes behind them).

It's about knowing your audience and, if you can't know everyone then taking a cautious view IMO. This forum is lively, diverse and full of humour and intelligence – let’s use the latter to keep it this way.

Sorry for going on a bit.

 

[DT]

DT getting the attention he so desires due to his wacky zany outlook on life........BORING !!

And whilst the 'N' word might of been 'reclaimed' by the ghetto pseudo gangster kids from Hackney, I think you will find the majority of decent black people find the use of the word aborant. My father in law was called it many times in the 60's, and my Mrs still heard it in the 80's. I would hope my kids don't have to hear it in the future applied to them.

Well best we try and re-invent current youth culture then ... if you rest your hopes then i suggest you adopt , educate and open your mind so that the children understand first hand that this can be wrong and don't sweep it under the carpet like most of the closed minds I see on here. Youth culture has history of growing away form is perceived to be correct... don't dream that is about to ever change.

The word n****** is equal to Gypo in my book but as you said that is zany and weird ... please one thing it isn't is boring ... I am alive

 

[West London Willy]

I have a number of good friends and because they are good friends both french speaking and english i am afraid that all i can do is assure you honestly that we use that word liberally. If it helps you ... would i walk up to a man I didn't know and use these words with tone of voice I would expect a hostile response ... same as i would to any man in the world ... you pick the skin colour and the word. I have Sir also stood my ground in Marseille when I have been racial abused for being White Trash and in someway responsible for a history of white slavery ... it really is that simple and in the unlikely scenario that you called me a liar to my face about an issue I known to be true and you continued to do so without using your degree of your own Ignorance and Moderation then Sir I would imagine I would kick your arse

I stand by what I posted. How you can take offence when you don't know the tone of my voice confuses me. I thought that no word could cause offence?

 

[DT]

I stand by what I posted. How you can take offence when you don't know the tone of my voice confuses me. I thought that no word could cause offence?

... Willy I genuinely enjoy your posts and you have made an excellent point and I apologise if i reacted to being called a liar .. you are wrong i am not but i shouldn't have reacted with a scenario which was daft . You were correct I was wrong on this issue.

 

[DT]

I've read this develop with interest and now feel obliged to wade in with my tuppence worth (couldn't resist for too long I'm afraid).

These are the key points as I see them:-

Free Speech - if anyone actually thinks this exists (except in the confines of one's head) then they are gravely deluded. The key is always context. Sometimes you will find a group of friends that you can express views freely with and they return in kind. There seems no limitation but that's because you know the audience. They may be seemingly happy with friendly banter about stuff in Victorian society that probably would have got your tongue sliced off) but that's only because there no persistent joking about one particular aspect to the point of not being funny. Taking it further, would people talk to elderly relatives the same way that they speak to their friends. Possibly yes (if the elderly person in question doesn't mind) but more likely no - there's self censorship that goes on, very naturally on a daily basis - in my view, this is a sign of the sophistication that elevates mankind.

Views expressed in countries that promote free speech are exposed to lawsuits and the like. It just doesn't exist. Does it bother me? No, because it has always been this way and it is the fabric of (universally) accepted morals that maintain a basic level of decorum.

The internet is in effect, no different. There is some leeway in that international boundaries are not so easily defined. The only "freedom" you'd get is by setting up your own website and spouting your opinions that way. Even then, you have to ask someone for domain space so that in itself is not without conditions. There also appears to be a storm looming with regard to ownership rights and censorship on the internet (mainly as a means of preventing piracy).

This site is no different - it belongs to someone else and we are, in effect, guests of Cyprussyd. He also chooses to use moderators to keep an eye on larger forums.

What is it that people think the appointed moderators here for? Is it to ban people who don't fit on the forum (WUMs)? Is it to prevent threads from crossing lines of acceptability? Is it to ensure smooth running and the continued enjoyment for the majority?

I'd assume, without seeing a specific remit, that it is all of these.

We banish blatant WUMs when popular opinion calls for it but simultaneous think that offensive remarks are OK until the "PC brigade" step in and those who have been silenced consider themselves a persecuted minority (the WUMs could consider themselves the same.

Most on here seem fairly relaxed about what gets said (we can just about deduce the context with which everything gets said although not always) but even if the popular opinion is that "anything goes" then that is potentially to the exclusion of a wider audience and could be people that have been persecuted themselves for something that is not reasonable.

I appreciate the context that things get said but, would someone, for example, who has recently been subjected to a racial attack, consider comments that are said in jest/making a social comment about taboos, funny? We don't know the whole audience that we are stating our thoughts and opinions to and so should draw a sensible line in terms of what is allowable.

I also appreciate the though about desensitising taboo words that that in itself is based on the assumption that everyone can use rationale in interpreting the intent (would you tell small children to use the n-word) and that there is no long standing hurt caused by the origin of the words in question (usually there is countless years of oppression that goes behind them).

It's about knowing your audience and, if you can't know everyone then taking a cautious view IMO. This forum is lively, diverse and full of humour and intelligence – let’s use the latter to keep it this way.

Sorry for going on a bit.

Matt outstanding as ever ... we are all brothers on here.... Open a newspaper anywhere and read the headlines they are designed for impact if not it will be a image ... the content like mime on here is usually bollocks

 

[Staines R's]

Well best we try and re-invent current youth culture then ... if you rest your hopes then i suggest you adopt , educate and open your mind so that the children understand first hand that this can be wrong and don't sweep it under the carpet like most of the closed minds I see on here. Youth culture has history of growing away form is perceived to be correct... don't dream that is about to ever change.

The word n****** is equal to Gypo in my book but as you said that is zany and weird ... please one thing it isn't is boring ... I am alive

I think you will find DT that my mind is very much educated in matters like this, and trust me, if you or anyone called my wife or kids n******* it wouldn't be swept under he carpet and would be confronted head on.

 

[West London Willy]

... Willy I genuinely enjoy your posts and you have made an excellent point and I apologise if i reacted to being called a liar .. you are wrong i am not but i shouldn't have reacted with a scenario which was daft . You were correct I was wrong on this issue.

That's the whole point though. You state above that no words can cause any offence, however you then immediately take offence (and actually threaten a level of violence) when taking umbrage at a word directed at you.

Do you not see how this proves that your stance is wrong, and that even you don't live by the viewpoint you are putting forward?

It's not the tone of the words in isolation that causes offence (because if someone loudly shouted at you, two inches from your face, that you are a lovely person, covering you in spittle as they did so, does that make those words offensive?) It's not the situation either. It's about tone, situation, AND words. However, the balance of the three can certainly be tipped when certain words are used. Your own reaction above is proof of that. Your apology is accepted and duly noticed, but it still shows that youare incorrect in your stance, as shown by your own reaction.

 

[DT]

I think you will find DT that my mind is very much educated in matters like this, and trust me, if you or anyone called my wife or kids n******* it wouldn't be swept under he carpet and would be confronted head on.

I can guarantee you Staines that that would never happen from me. A person that hypothetically made a tone of voice comment like that to you deserves everything you could give that person IMO. Would it be violence? or would you call that person a terrible name back?. I could understand both points of view there. My farming family have in the past been called Pikey and Gypo sometimes I saw violence and at times the other cheek is offered... after a while an education (I still have problem making my cousins see this!) wins through and wisdom wins the day.

 

[DT]

That's the whole point though. You state above that no words can cause any offence, however you then immediately take offence (and actually threaten a level of violence) when taking umbrage at a word directed at you.

Do you not see how this proves that your stance is wrong, and that even you don't live by the viewpoint you are putting forward?

It's not the tone of the words in isolation that causes offence (because if someone loudly shouted at you, two inches from your face, that you are a lovely person, covering you in spittle as they did so, does that make those words offensive?) It's not the situation either. It's about tone, situation, AND words. However, the balance of the three can certainly be tipped when certain words are used. Your own reaction above is proof of that. Your apology is accepted and duly noticed, but it still shows that youare incorrect in your stance, as shown by your own reaction.

I was completely wrong Willy there. I feel very strongly about the levels of selected racism and attitude on this forum and have in my own zany way attempted to highlight that. I am hoping you can see through a ego that doesn't exist. Also timeline events as having had the verdict from the JT trial this was my driver to the recorded comments on here. JT is not a racist, did he use tone of voice in a racially insulting way...IMO yes regardless of what we all think of him as a human being... My comments provoked discussion and opinion around this subject and were based around a post that read open season on black players ... my point it always has been and the carpet need cleaning but not just on people with a different skin colour to the majority that watch our football team.

 

[Staines R's]

I can guarantee you Staines that that would never happen from me. A person that hypothetically made a tone of voice comment like that to you deserves everything you could give that person IMO. Would it be violence? or would you call that person a terrible name back?. I could understand both points of view there. My farming family have in the past been called Pikey and Gypo sometimes I saw violence and at times the other cheek is offered... after a while an education (I still have problem making my cousins see this!) wins through and wisdom wins the day.

DT, firstly i just want to make clear that i'm not threatening you with violence AND that i'm pretty sure you wouldn't dream of making such insults to me or my family......
So here we go.......Yes, if someone made comments like that at my family i would be willing and most able to face this using any means possible....and yes that does include violence. My personal beliefs (that have been shaped by my past), is that racism and facism needs to be confronted on not just an ideological level but also on a physical level. The NF, BM and various right wing movements of the past were never too worried about getting into a debate with antifa, in fact they quite often saw it as a weakness and a chance to bully their opponents. But when groups like AFA realised that physical confrontation should and could be used as a tool to fight against them, many on the right were able to reasses their views and came to realise that what they thought was wrong.

Sorry if this goes slightly off subject but i hope it explains my reasonings behind what i believe.