. . He's got England to two finals and a semi and yet he's lucky and it's nowt to do with him. He's transformed the England set up and done a great job after the shambles of 2010, 14, 16, etc etc. Its incredible that people pick faults in him constantly. Yes he's probably made mistakes and had the luck of draw but he knows how to navigate his way through tournaments better than any England manager before him
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It probably is time for a fresh voice to hopefully take us on to the next level. But people are quick to forget that we've marvelled at the talent in our squad in the past and then failed to get past the quarters. Navigating a tournament is a skill - as is creating an environment that players want to be involved in. Southgate deserves great credit for both. I just hope that the next man builds on top of that and doesn't throw it away.
He does? His most effective position is the left half space.So much wrong in my post but then says that Grealish wants the ball in the same areas as Kane Foden and Jude?
Just noticed you said Judes ball carrying was good last night in another post, if you think ONE completed dribble is good I suppose you are correct.
Southgate has had 8 years. We have been winning youth tournaments and we have elite players used to winning champions leagues. I think there are better coaches out there than Southgate. Southgate has had 8 years and four tournaments on top of a few years in the U21s where he was poor. If he can't get some semblance of an identity in that time I am hardly mad to question that. If we want to break out of the cycle of heroic failure then we have to demand more
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Prehab26
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Nah. Watch it and listen. Makes spot on points.
Fair enough. Usually his Liverpool is very much on show - and he’s definitely a gobshite. Will give it a watch.
That's the major problem for me. He's expected to play certain players and if he doesn't he's castigated. There were players played out of position and players not suitable for the system playing throughout the tournament. Southgate knows that. But he has to balance public expectations. Drop Kane, for example, and we lose through a lucky deflection, he's an idiot for not playing Kane. The public won't notice that maybe the system works better and we've just been unlucky.
Every England manager gets wholly unfair criticism. It will be the same for whoever gets the job next.
Aye agree its def easier said than done dropping your best goalscorerDefinitely agree with the overall diagnosis. The treatment, less so
For me it was as simple as drop Kane and play Watkins. Can you imagine a manager who'd have been brave enough to drop England's record goalscorer and captain in a final, though? Probably only Keano
I help my mates amatuer side at times and we have that problem, we have 2 strikers who average 50 goals each a season but if they are off it, they offer zero to the team - hard to drop them tho as they score goals
Thats why England need a braver manager to kick them on
Southgate has built great foundations for someone to come and build on, 2 finals a semi final and a quarter is class in 4 competitions but need someone who will try and win the big games
The talent is there for sure, just need to find a style of play n system to get the most out of the players
I love the 'most successful manager since' brigade.
I couldn't give a **** about that, I've got eyes and can see that a manager who liked attacking football and had balls would get so much more from the team. One thing I credit Southgate for is more than any other England manager he has got them all working together for England, **** the club rivalry, **** the thinking you are the dogs bollocks so why try etc..
But it was predictable yesterday and their defence might aswell have been on sun loungers by the pool apart from about 10 minutes but I dead of keeping that up they stepped off again! The reason we didn't beat Italy was the same stepped off instead of finishing them when they were rocking!
I couldn't give a **** about that, I've got eyes and can see that a manager who liked attacking football and had balls would get so much more from the team. One thing I credit Southgate for is more than any other England manager he has got them all working together for England, **** the club rivalry, **** the thinking you are the dogs bollocks so why try etc..
But it was predictable yesterday and their defence might aswell have been on sun loungers by the pool apart from about 10 minutes but I dead of keeping that up they stepped off again! The reason we didn't beat Italy was the same stepped off instead of finishing them when they were rocking!
There will have been a bit of running out of time for Southgate and a bit of running out of talent. I'm not convinced that its as easy as finding a braver manager, but it's probably time to find out. Makes me think about a comment Pep made towards the end of last season, though. He was asked about how he comes up with these revolutionary systems (eg inverted fullbacks, hybrid centre half/dms etc) and he basically said that Beguiristain buys him some players and he has to find a way to fit them into a system. It's the whole 'necessity is the mother of invention' thing. But this is the greatest coach perhaps ever and even he can take 3-6 months to figure out what he has and find a solution (as in 22/23).
International football is similar. You don't get to choose a style and recruit to it. You get given a set of building blocks. Rarely you get given all the right blocks to make a traditionally coherent team (witness our proliferation of attacking midfielders that we can't fit onto the pitch or Germany's inability to find a number 9) but you have to make it fit. Even the Spain team last night was missing a striker on the same level as their midfield. And somehow in snatches of training sessions here and there over a 2-4 year period - with a constantly shifting backdrop of form, injury, maturity and ageing - you have to find a way to shoehorn what you have into a system. For England you have to do this against a huge level of scrutiny and while balancing the need to experiment with the need to maintain momentum and goodwill - from fans, media and the players themselves. And even then, a bad bounce, a bad decision a bad injury and you're a failure regardless of what you've done prior to that moment. Football is a bastard
Yep im saying a braver manager but they arent easy to find - especially when it comes to a high pressured job like the England oneThere will have been a bit of running out of time for Southgate and a bit of running out of talent. I'm not convinced that its as easy as finding a braver manager, but it's probably time to find out. Makes me think about a comment Pep made towards the end of last season, though. He was asked about how he comes up with these revolutionary systems (eg inverted fullbacks, hybrid centre half/dms etc) and he basically said that Beguiristain buys him some players and he has to find a way to fit them into a system. It's the whole 'necessity is the mother of invention' thing. But this is the greatest coach perhaps ever and even he can take 3-6 months to figure out what he has and find a solution (as in 22/23).
International football is similar. You don't get to choose a style and recruit to it. You get given a set of building blocks. Rarely you get given all the right blocks to make a traditionally coherent team (witness our proliferation of attacking midfielders that we can't fit onto the pitch or Germany's inability to find a number 9) but you have to make it fit. Even the Spain team last night was missing a striker on the same level as their midfield. And somehow in snatches of training sessions here and there over a 2-4 year period - with a constantly shifting backdrop of form, injury, maturity and ageing - you have to find a way to shoehorn what you have into a system. For England you have to do this against a huge level of scrutiny and while balancing the need to experiment with the need to maintain momentum and goodwill - from fans, media and the players themselves. And even then, a bad bounce, a bad decision a bad injury and you're a failure regardless of what you've done prior to that moment. Football is a bastard
On a side note, that spanish team could be unreal in the next couple yrs - some unreal talent coming through and they all play different positions
Agreed. There are millions of coaching experts on twitter who don't hold a single badge. There are plenty of this thread who will tell us all what Southgate has done wrong, but without the knowledge of how the game is played.
Yeah they look well-positioned. Wonder if that is where we need our next evolution? That academy system. We've had lots of success in creating certain types of players. However, can we produce creative attacking midfielders at the same time as creating central players who can receive the ball in tight spaces as well as dominant, ball-playing defenders and technical willing runners out wide? We have a tendency to overreact to disappointment, overcorrect and then specialise. Maybe we can evolve to be more rounded. It looks like it'll be important over the next decade or so if we want to succeed.
Very raw for me, too raw probably.
The game swung in the first 5 mins of the second half in my opinion. We were not alert after half time and players did not do some jobs. Spain are such good front runners. But at just 1 down we always knew a goal was there for us. The winner is a killer though, so late. You have to be managing the game at that point. We were wide open to the counter attack on 86 minutes, mind boggling that to me.
Credit to Spain. They look to have the players to have another dominant era to me. They have better players than England in my opinion. We get a bit to carried away with the Prem being the best league etc when the reality is quite different. Yamal, Williams, Rodri, Fabian, Le Normande would all get in our team. Maybe Cucarrella too with Shaw unfit. Olmo is perhaps the most underrated player they have, but he was better than Bellingham this tournament.
I think overall we have had players who have not quite met their own standards. Rice hasnt looked his usual solid and dominant self. Stones hasnt carried the ball as well. Bellingham has looked leggy to me. Kane hasnt been mobile. Our set pieces have been poor as well, when usually they are a threat - probably missed the menace Maguire brings to those. I think we have to look also at the general quality - are they as good as the opposition players? On last nights showing Spain have better players. It wouldnt surprise me if we play big semi and final games against each other over the next 4-6 years.
Southgate? I think he will resign. I think the treatment of him by sections of the media and some fans has been shocking this tournament. 8 years in that job will take its toll I suspect. He is as proud an Englishman as there is and I suspect he is hurting. To those saying he isnt brave enough or doesnt have the balls for it you have really lost me. He stood up and took a penalty for England at one time, he has made his big calls as he sees them, he has fronted up to a variety of on and off field situations in his time. He has shown how brave he is and that he has the balls time and time again in my opinion.
Who will replace him? I would expect it to be Carsley personally. The FA when putting Southgate in charge of the u21s had a vision of creating a rolling appointment approach of u21 to first team. Different people in charge so maybe differenf thinking, but I doubt it. Carsley has done very well at u21s and the players making their mark now know him well. Makes sense. Plus money is tight and we arent going to be paying top whack. Potter may have a chance as he is out of work, but the difference between club management and international management is night and day and I would think someone like him wants a crack at another big club job first.
Still hurting, so so close again...
The game swung in the first 5 mins of the second half in my opinion. We were not alert after half time and players did not do some jobs. Spain are such good front runners. But at just 1 down we always knew a goal was there for us. The winner is a killer though, so late. You have to be managing the game at that point. We were wide open to the counter attack on 86 minutes, mind boggling that to me.
Credit to Spain. They look to have the players to have another dominant era to me. They have better players than England in my opinion. We get a bit to carried away with the Prem being the best league etc when the reality is quite different. Yamal, Williams, Rodri, Fabian, Le Normande would all get in our team. Maybe Cucarrella too with Shaw unfit. Olmo is perhaps the most underrated player they have, but he was better than Bellingham this tournament.
I think overall we have had players who have not quite met their own standards. Rice hasnt looked his usual solid and dominant self. Stones hasnt carried the ball as well. Bellingham has looked leggy to me. Kane hasnt been mobile. Our set pieces have been poor as well, when usually they are a threat - probably missed the menace Maguire brings to those. I think we have to look also at the general quality - are they as good as the opposition players? On last nights showing Spain have better players. It wouldnt surprise me if we play big semi and final games against each other over the next 4-6 years.
Southgate? I think he will resign. I think the treatment of him by sections of the media and some fans has been shocking this tournament. 8 years in that job will take its toll I suspect. He is as proud an Englishman as there is and I suspect he is hurting. To those saying he isnt brave enough or doesnt have the balls for it you have really lost me. He stood up and took a penalty for England at one time, he has made his big calls as he sees them, he has fronted up to a variety of on and off field situations in his time. He has shown how brave he is and that he has the balls time and time again in my opinion.
Who will replace him? I would expect it to be Carsley personally. The FA when putting Southgate in charge of the u21s had a vision of creating a rolling appointment approach of u21 to first team. Different people in charge so maybe differenf thinking, but I doubt it. Carsley has done very well at u21s and the players making their mark now know him well. Makes sense. Plus money is tight and we arent going to be paying top whack. Potter may have a chance as he is out of work, but the difference between club management and international management is night and day and I would think someone like him wants a crack at another big club job first.
Still hurting, so so close again...
Whatever the case there's no way Southgate can stay.
He's tarnished by this tournament and won't be able to shake it off imo.
He seems unable to function in this kind of pressurised situation.
When you can see players talking amongst themselves and changing position it makes you wonder why he's sitting there with his hands clenched. Spain were always going to score so we knew we'd need two goals to win and that wasn't likely to happen with that set up.
Everyone knew that starting with Kane was walking out with a white flag. Where was the harm in having him on the bench, starting with a real threat up front and someone to occupy two defenders. Spain knew they only needed one quick defender, when they were attacking, to handle Kane.
Worst of all, when Spain were playing out from the keeper, Kane's 'press' was like a grandad shuffling up the garden to check his leeks.
He's tarnished by this tournament and won't be able to shake it off imo.
He seems unable to function in this kind of pressurised situation.
When you can see players talking amongst themselves and changing position it makes you wonder why he's sitting there with his hands clenched. Spain were always going to score so we knew we'd need two goals to win and that wasn't likely to happen with that set up.
Everyone knew that starting with Kane was walking out with a white flag. Where was the harm in having him on the bench, starting with a real threat up front and someone to occupy two defenders. Spain knew they only needed one quick defender, when they were attacking, to handle Kane.
Worst of all, when Spain were playing out from the keeper, Kane's 'press' was like a grandad shuffling up the garden to check his leeks.
Agree with the view on Rice. Thought he was below his levels in a lot of games. Passes often made it to teammates but so often in a way that made it tough for them to progress.
Potter will be the name on many lips (alongside the fantasy of Klopp) but I'd worry about his ability to coalesce a large group of talented individuals into a team whilst under scrutiny. He certainly failed at that task whilst at Chelsea.
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