Off Topic EU deabte. Which way are you voting ?

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How will you vote in the EU referendum ?

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PISKIE said:
Well this comes down to the equation of whether people want cheap food. We've had 30 years of cheap stuff thrown at us. The cost is immigrant workers, low wages, chemical sprayed food, dairy farmers going bust etc. If the public want equity in the food market, then the food will cost more.
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I disagree to some extent with this comment. As said in one of my early posts, cheaper labour does not always equate to the final cost. In my opinion, businesses are not always passing on savings, as you have mentioned above. They are however, enjoying the extra profits associated with cheaper labour.
 
Safc83 said:
I can't say I'm speaking from experience here, but I would be absolutely staggered if that doesn't already happen..
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It's about making the conditions right. It's all very well saying 'Lazy ****ers should go and get a job' but in reality, you need to have good training in place, staggered benefits/housing benefit, proper wages, help to buy uniforms etc. Some of this already happens. As I said I think the living wage will go a long way to help. Before that it simply didn't make sense for people to give up their benefits as they would be worse off, lose housing benefit and probably make themselves homeless.
 
pieguts said:
I disagree to some extent with this comment. As said in one of my early posts, cheaper labour does not always equate to the final cost. In my opinion, businesses are not always passing on savings, as you have mentioned above. They are however, enjoying the extra profits associated with cheaper labour.
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True, but you can guarantee that if UK businesses were forced to pay their workers more, then food costs would rise.
 
pieguts said:
I'm not sure if this is a post designed to ridicule, as I let my heart rule my head with a previous answer to "one of your questions".
Before I try to answer your question, let me reiterate my stance. I am not anti immigration. I believe that we need to have a flexible workforce to manage and enhance our economy, in the same way, as perhaps, the Mediterranean countries have a flexible workforce to manage tourism. My issue is that I believe that the UK should dictate those levels, I would suggest by introducing measures that don't make the UK as generous with what it provides, in terms of benefits (either directly or indirectly), rather than having those levels dictated by the EU.
Now to try to answer your question...I'm really not sure whether I want to be in the common market as is now, therefore free movement is probably not really an issue. I want to be part of a common market that uses its collective strength to benefit all of its members, but I don't see that now. We still pay more for our goods and services than any other European country.
If we can get to the point where we are truly trading just goods and services, not being part of some federal superstate, and free movement was the only issue from stopping this happening then I would not be against this.
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Why would it be designed to ridicule? I just want a different perspective from a eurosceptic, thinking (as I said once before to you) I might get reasonably from you. I appreciate what you've said though. I didn't think about the actual deal itself. What's the chance of us getting a fairer deal for our goods and services than what we had before? I'm trying to get my head around the terms Leadsom (I hope) will negotiate on.. or approach it at the very least. What will we get, what are the options, what will be give up. I really don't even know if the common market is all that important.
 
Treble said:
Why would it be designed to ridicule? I just want a different perspective from a eurosceptic, thinking (as I said once before to you) I might get reasonably from you. I appreciate what you've said though. I didn't think about the actual deal itself. What's the chance of us getting a fairer deal for our goods and services than what we had before? I'm trying to get my head around the terms Leadsom (I hope) will negotiate on.. or approach it at the very least. What will we get, what are the options, what will be give up. I really don't even know if the common market is all that important.
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It's impossible to list on a forum. Every interaction between the UK and EU will be considered. They are not going to negotiate a few things and then make the rest up as they go along after the deal is agreed.
 
PISKIE said:
True, but you can guarantee that if UK businesses were forced to pay their workers more, then food costs would rise.
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Not sure about the cost of food manufacturing, as its not an area of expertise for me. However, I can speak with a little more conviction when it comes to the construction industry, and I can categorically state that the lower labour costs are not benefiting construction projects. As said, there's a lot of businessman getting very wealthy off the back of cheaper labour.
 
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Treble said:
Why would it be designed to ridicule? I just want a different perspective from a eurosceptic, thinking (as I said once before to you) I might get reasonably from you. I appreciate what you've said though. I didn't think about the actual deal itself. What's the chance of us getting a fairer deal for our goods and services than what we had before? I'm trying to get my head around the terms Leadsom (I hope) will negotiate on.. or approach it at the very least. What will we get, what are the options, what will be give up. I really don't even know if the common market is all that important.
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Apologies if it was not, but it's bloody hard to know on this thread. <laugh>
 
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Treble said:
I see what you're saying but there's something distasteful about the way she says that AFTER the case has been done and dusted.

There's a film called Reversal of Fortune, not sure if you've seen it mate. At the end the lawyer turns around to the rather odious bloke he's just got off, and says "Legally, this was an important victory... morally you're on your own."

She has a job to do, but the scoffing at the end suggests that she doesn't detach her job from her moral compass.
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If she had a moral compass, she wouldn't be a lawyer in the USA! They're actually considered to be one of the lowest forms of life over there by the populace.
 
Safc83 said:
I'm not going against that, I can't, it's fact.

It was never going to be plain sailing with everything dropping in our favour. We now need to renegotiate and get the best deals we can.

I'll also be honest, I'm trying my best to answer this question but I'm very weak in this area. Sorry <laugh>

If you want to defend a *****phile sympathiser, that's your prerogative <ok>
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Ridiculous statement!....
 
Treble said:
Why would it be designed to ridicule? I just want a different perspective from a eurosceptic, thinking (as I said once before to you) I might get reasonably from you. I appreciate what you've said though. I didn't think about the actual deal itself. What's the chance of us getting a fairer deal for our goods and services than what we had before? I'm trying to get my head around the terms Leadsom (I hope) will negotiate on.. or approach it at the very least. What will we get, what are the options, what will be give up. I really don't even know if the common market is all that important.
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My gut feeling around any upcoming trade negotiations, is that Germany and France will make them as difficult for us as possible. They need to protect the EU at any cost, as they have the most to lose, if the whole thing implodes (as I really hope it does!!).
I cannot talk about trade deals with any conviction, as I don't know enough about how it works. If you can get passed some of the bullshit and posturing on this thread, there are some interesting comments.
I think that whoever does the deal, on the UK's behalf, will need to have balls of steel. We've never been that well liked when in the club, what chance will we have outside of the club!!
 
Treble said:
@pieguts @Fez if you're still around do you know enough to answer this? One of the 4 conditions of the Common Market is freedom of movement. The question is do we want to be in the common market? I remember Boris and Gove saying it was still possible? Is it?... and is it worth the hassle? (that's an important factor because I don't know if it is worth it). If it's not what we want or is not important, then freedom of movement is not an issue as we can decide that and look at trade through other routes. But if we do want to join it, then that depends on whether the EU bods are willing to put aside the strict conditions and waive that one condition for us. From what they said last Thursday their position atm sounds unanimous that they won't. Which route in particular will the next government/PM take?
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<laugh> That's a first; never been tagged before, WTF! :emoticon-0128-hi:

I don't know if I know enough or not, as I have always said I have a reasonably well informed Layman's view on things, certainly not an experts.

I voted for the Common Market which was a different beast from the EU - I gave it over 4 decades and have voted for something other; I don't believe we should be looking to go backwards, as the future must be reshaped on the way of life now and it is much different, socially and technologically.

I have always said (and the French Foreign Minister later echoed me <whistle> ) that everything will be on the table when negotiations start. There will be strong words and there will be threats, veiled or otherwise, but people will talk with us and deals will be made. I believe these deals will be a model for the future for everyone. I also believe that the deals will be a drawing together of the UK, Europe and the rest of the world in new and more enlightened terms.

I think there will be joy and disappointment on all sides, some will claim victories, some will be pragmatic and work for cooperation, constructive relationships and a future plan that serves the common good. Perhaps that is what we should seek to begin and join, The Common Good, rather than a tired and jaded The Common Market.

Remember, it is just a bloody opinion! <ok>
 
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pieguts said:
My gut feeling around any upcoming trade negotiations, is that Germany and France will make them as difficult for us as possible. They need to protect the EU at any cost, as they have the most to lose, if the whole thing implodes (as I really hope it does!!).
I cannot talk about trade deals with any conviction, as I don't know enough about how it works. If you can get passed some of the bullshit and posturing on this thread, there are some interesting comments.
I think that whoever does the deal, on the UK's behalf, will need to have balls of steel. We've never been that well liked when in the club, what chance will we have outside of the club!!
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We also have to remember that the EU has most to lose if a trade deal isn't concluded as they sell more to the UK than the UK sells to the EU.
 
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