Off Topic Coronavirus

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sb_73 said:
I would very much like to get a legal opinion on it. I think Yorkie gave one on this subject many pages ago and I’m afraid I can’t remember it.....
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I can't remember what I said from one day to the next. Wikipedia has a reasonable condensed summary. However rule of thumb is that the criminal offence is designed to look at the ethos, usually in the safety context, of the company not necessarily individual failures of judgment. That may explain the reasoning of the jury in the Hillsboro case against Duckenfield. It's not an easy test to satisfy but, dare I say, a bit easier to prove in the context of a civil claim in negligence for compensation. The quality of the negligence will obviously vary from case to case from (these are all examples) a simple mistake, inadvertence, forgetting to do something which has extreme consequences for the victims to directing your employees not to carry out obvious checks because it costs too much to do so, failing to train your staff properly and failing to heed warnings because it has never happened before or worse still covering it up if it did happen albeit on a much reduced scale. The statutory duty is to take all reasonably practicable steps to ensure the health and safety of your employees and your visitors/customers and to carry out proper risk assessments. That means a risk assessment which identifies a potentially serious risk of death or injury is to be acted upon and not to be filed away on cost grounds. If you cannot afford to make something or provide a service safely you shouldn't be doing so at all. That is the utopian goal.

The government's actions in directing the discharge of patients who had been diagnosed as having Covid-19 seems to most people to have been a deliberate shutting of eyes to an obvious risk - something they will have great difficulty in denying I would have thought given their advice within a week or so later, that 1.5 million people who were immuno-compromised because of their age and/or medical history should lock themselves away for 12 weeks. They are going to need a bloody good QC to persuade a judge or jury that they were 'entitled to rely on the scientific advice' of their pet advisers and not ask serious questions about that little bit of curious logic or more likely wishful thinking.
 
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Why did Jenny Harries say the death rate is going down? The average number of daily deaths is slowly going down on the seven day rolling calculation, but the death rate per million is going up - it was 501 yesterday and it is 508 today. And in fact the daily death rate went up from 384 yesterday to 468 today. It’s not a big thing, but this sloppiness is indicative of an approach that assumes that there is no real scrutiny and that everyone is only interested in good news.

My neighbour received one of the tests that Imperial are sending out, I think 100k in total, to try and get an idea of prevalence in the community. It’s an antigen not an antibody test, so it will find ‘live’ carriers only. As she has already had the virus (untested of course, she wasn’t hospitalised) we all wondered what the point was. And when she realised exactly how far the swab needs to go up her nose she began to lose interest in the whole thing.
 
YorkshireHoopster said:
I can't remember what I said from one day to the next. Wikipedia has a reasonable condensed summary. However rule of thumb is that the criminal offence is designed to look at the ethos, usually in the safety context, of the company not necessarily individual failures of judgment. That may explain the reasoning of the jury in the Hillsboro case against Duckenfield. It's not an easy test to satisfy but, dare I say, a bit easier to prove in the context of a civil claim in negligence for compensation. The quality of the negligence will obviously vary from case to case from (these are all examples) a simple mistake, inadvertence, forgetting to do something which has extreme consequences for the victims to directing your employees not to carry out obvious checks because it costs too much to do so, failing to train your staff properly and failing to heed warnings because it has never happened before or worse still covering it up if it did happen albeit on a much reduced scale. The statutory duty is to take all reasonably practicable steps to ensure the health and safety of your employees and your visitors/customers and to carry out proper risk assessments. That means a risk assessment which identifies a potentially serious risk of death or injury is to be acted upon and not to be filed away on cost grounds. If you cannot afford to make something or provide a service safely you shouldn't be doing so at all. That is the utopian goal.

The government's actions in directing the discharge of patients who had been diagnosed as having Covid-19 seems to most people to have been a deliberate shutting of eyes to an obvious risk - something they will have great difficulty in denying I would have thought given their advice within a week or so later, that 1.5 million people who were immuno-compromised because of their age and/or medical history should lock themselves away for 12 weeks. They are going to need a bloody good QC to persuade a judge or jury that they were 'entitled to rely on the scientific advice' of their pet advisers and not ask serious questions about that little bit of curious logic or more likely wishful thinking.
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Thank you sir.

There will be a reckoning.
 
sb_73 said:
In England hospitals were ordered to discharge 15,000 patients either to home or care homes by the end of March, to make space for new virus patients. They were not required to have continuing health needs assessments prior to discharge, and many were told not to contact their GP. Nothing to do with administrators, government policy.
Source: Health Service Journal.
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As I said in earlier posts my family had more than a minor brush with this virus.
We went through the scenario of my parents having to go back and forth to the hospital several times in the course of around ten days. My Dad (aged 91) had slipped down the stairs and fractured a few ribs. They didnt want him in the hospital but then the visiting carers couldnt get him out of bed as he was in too much pain. So for more than a week it felt like paramedics were there every day, wanting to help but not really wanting to take them in to the hospital.
Eventually they decided to have him in hospital and also let my Mum stay with him. This was meant to be until he recovered from his fractured ribs.
At some point after they were admitted they were both tested and hound to have the virus. Of course we have no way of knowing when they contracted the virus or who from. Honestly, from day one of my Dad having the diagnosis the hospital were telling us that he wouldnt make it but that my Mum had a 50/50 chance. He was soon in a very bad way and the last week of his life was spent slipping in and out of consciousness with his medication and treatment being based around end of life care. He was in a room with my Mum which was a relief and they had beds side by side so could hold hands.
He eventually passed away and our worry was that my Mum would soon follow but in actual fact she rallied really well. Dad had dementia so maybe for her it was actually some kind of relief. Soon after this she was tested again, so they said, and found to be all clear. she was doing well but the hospital was now in a position where they wanted beds, the rush was about to begin.
There was no way on Earth she could return to her home so between myself, my daughter and social services we looked to trying to get her into a care home. Can you imagine the call to a care home that goes "Hi my Mum has recently recovered from Covid-19 and would like to come and live in your coronavirus free environment". During this time I was told quite categorically that the hospital was charging social services for my Mum being in hospital. I was told a figure that I cannot really believe and although I knew the system had been used before to avoid bed blocking I really thought it was a thing of the past.
The care home of our choice eventually agreed to take my Mum although I think, or rather I know, some serious pressure was put upon the home to do so. The home had all its carers living in at the time to reduce the chance of the virus getting into the home. I cannot praise these people enough, they are every bit as dedicated as the NHS staff. They isolated my Mum for seven days in a room of her own and had to "gown up" every time they went into her room. It must have been a huge worry for them and I cannot thank them enough for their dedication.

I thought I would share this story so that you can all understand the pressures that are there between organisations and also wanted to paint a positive picture at least of this care home as I know a lot of them are given a hard time.

My Mum is doing well and has actually put on 5lbs since being in the care home. We are having to sell the family home to pay for it but that sacrifice is minimal when you think of what so many people are going through in this awful time.
 
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stick said:
As I said in earlier posts my family had more than a minor brush with this virus.
We went through the scenario of my parents having to go back and forth to the hospital several times in the course of around ten days. My Dad (aged 91) had slipped down the stairs and fractured a few ribs. They didnt want him in the hospital but then the visiting carers couldnt get him out of bed as he was in too much pain. So for more than a week it felt like paramedics were there every day, wanting to help but not really wanting to take them in to the hospital.
Eventually they decided to have him in hospital and also let my Mum stay with him. This was meant to be until he recovered from his fractured ribs.
At some point after they were admitted they were both tested and hound to have the virus. Of course we have no way of knowing when they contracted the virus or who from. Honestly, from day one of my Dad having the diagnosis the hospital were telling us that he wouldnt make it but that my Mum had a 50/50 chance. He was soon in a very bad way and the last week of his life was spent slipping in and out of consciousness with his medication and treatment being based around end of life care. He was in a room with my Mum which was a relief and they had beds side by side so could hold hands.
He eventually passed away and our worry was that my Mum would soon follow but in actual fact she rallied really well. Dad had dementia so maybe for her it was actually some kind of relief. Soon after this she was tested again, so they said, and found to be all clear. she was doing well but the hospital was now in a position where they wanted beds, the rush was about to begin.
There was no way on Earth she could return to her home so between myself, my daughter and social services we looked to trying to get her into a care home. Can you imagine the call to a care home that goes "Hi my Mum has recently recovered from Covid-19 and would like to come and live in your coronavirus free environment". During this time I was told quite categorically that the hospital was charging social services for my Mum being in hospital. I was told a figure that I cannot really believe and although I knew the system had been used before to avoid bed blocking I really thought it was a thing of the past.
The care home of our choice eventually agreed to take my Mum although I think, or rather I know, some serious pressure was put upon the home to do so. The home had all its carers living in at the time to reduce the chance of the virus getting into the home. I cannot praise these people enough, they are every bit as dedicated as the NHS staff. They isolated my Mum for seven days in a room of her own and had to "gown up" every time they went into her room. It must have been a huge worry for them and I cannot thank them enough for their dedication.

I thought I would share this story so that you can all understand the pressures that are there between organisations and also wanted to paint a positive picture at least of this care home as I know a lot of them are given a hard time.

My Mum is doing well and has actually put on 5lbs since being in the care home. We are having to sell the family home to pay for it but that sacrifice is minimal when you think of what so many people are going through in this awful time.
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Thanks Stick. Condolences for your father, best wishes for your mum.
 
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What did I miss on the daily ****show? I've seen online that the old stupid witch said there are 3 'R' rates to consider now!
Is the 'R' on the rise again?
 
If Wiilamson promises it's safe for kids to go back to school then can we please see the evidence to prove this. As a parent that's not too much to ask. And if after such promises, my child gets infected and in turn infects myself and my wife, will you be open to libel damages?
If I were a teacher I would be telling them to **** right off
 
I think it all comes down to trust. It's difficult to trust after the lies about care homes, testing, lockdown and much much more.
 
According to the Daily Telegraph the coding of the model used by Professor Neil ‘shagger’ Ferguson at Imperial to make his various predictions that the government took seriously was so full of bugs that it never gave the same result twice and would have resulted in the sacking of anybody who produced such an inept piece of work in a commercial setting.

Well, I’m stunned.
 
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stick said:
As I said in earlier posts my family had more than a minor brush with this virus.
We went through the scenario of my parents having to go back and forth to the hospital several times in the course of around ten days. My Dad (aged 91) had slipped down the stairs and fractured a few ribs. They didnt want him in the hospital but then the visiting carers couldnt get him out of bed as he was in too much pain. So for more than a week it felt like paramedics were there every day, wanting to help but not really wanting to take them in to the hospital.
Eventually they decided to have him in hospital and also let my Mum stay with him. This was meant to be until he recovered from his fractured ribs.
At some point after they were admitted they were both tested and hound to have the virus. Of course we have no way of knowing when they contracted the virus or who from. Honestly, from day one of my Dad having the diagnosis the hospital were telling us that he wouldnt make it but that my Mum had a 50/50 chance. He was soon in a very bad way and the last week of his life was spent slipping in and out of consciousness with his medication and treatment being based around end of life care. He was in a room with my Mum which was a relief and they had beds side by side so could hold hands.
He eventually passed away and our worry was that my Mum would soon follow but in actual fact she rallied really well. Dad had dementia so maybe for her it was actually some kind of relief. Soon after this she was tested again, so they said, and found to be all clear. she was doing well but the hospital was now in a position where they wanted beds, the rush was about to begin.
There was no way on Earth she could return to her home so between myself, my daughter and social services we looked to trying to get her into a care home. Can you imagine the call to a care home that goes "Hi my Mum has recently recovered from Covid-19 and would like to come and live in your coronavirus free environment". During this time I was told quite categorically that the hospital was charging social services for my Mum being in hospital. I was told a figure that I cannot really believe and although I knew the system had been used before to avoid bed blocking I really thought it was a thing of the past.
The care home of our choice eventually agreed to take my Mum although I think, or rather I know, some serious pressure was put upon the home to do so. The home had all its carers living in at the time to reduce the chance of the virus getting into the home. I cannot praise these people enough, they are every bit as dedicated as the NHS staff. They isolated my Mum for seven days in a room of her own and had to "gown up" every time they went into her room. It must have been a huge worry for them and I cannot thank them enough for their dedication.

I thought I would share this story so that you can all understand the pressures that are there between organisations and also wanted to paint a positive picture at least of this care home as I know a lot of them are given a hard time.

My Mum is doing well and has actually put on 5lbs since being in the care home. We are having to sell the family home to pay for it but that sacrifice is minimal when you think of what so many people are going through in this awful time.
Click to expand...
Condolences to you and your Family, Stick.
 
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sb_73 said:
According to the Daily Telegraph the coding of the model used by Professor Neil ‘shagger’ Ferguson at Imperial to make his various predictions that the government took seriously was so full of bugs that it never gave the same result twice and would have resulted in the sacking of anybody who produced such an inept piece of work in a commercial setting.

Well, I’m stunned.
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bobmid said:
If Wiilamson promises it's safe for kids to go back to school then can we please see the evidence to prove this. As a parent that's not too much to ask. And if after such promises, my child gets infected and in turn infects myself and my wife, will you be open to libel damages?
If I were a teacher I would be telling them to **** right off
Click to expand...

Send them back when Eton go back and you’ll be about right.
 
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stick said:
As I said in earlier posts my family had more than a minor brush with this virus.
We went through the scenario of my parents having to go back and forth to the hospital several times in the course of around ten days. My Dad (aged 91) had slipped down the stairs and fractured a few ribs. They didnt want him in the hospital but then the visiting carers couldnt get him out of bed as he was in too much pain. So for more than a week it felt like paramedics were there every day, wanting to help but not really wanting to take them in to the hospital.
Eventually they decided to have him in hospital and also let my Mum stay with him. This was meant to be until he recovered from his fractured ribs.
At some point after they were admitted they were both tested and hound to have the virus. Of course we have no way of knowing when they contracted the virus or who from. Honestly, from day one of my Dad having the diagnosis the hospital were telling us that he wouldnt make it but that my Mum had a 50/50 chance. He was soon in a very bad way and the last week of his life was spent slipping in and out of consciousness with his medication and treatment being based around end of life care. He was in a room with my Mum which was a relief and they had beds side by side so could hold hands.
He eventually passed away and our worry was that my Mum would soon follow but in actual fact she rallied really well. Dad had dementia so maybe for her it was actually some kind of relief. Soon after this she was tested again, so they said, and found to be all clear. she was doing well but the hospital was now in a position where they wanted beds, the rush was about to begin.
There was no way on Earth she could return to her home so between myself, my daughter and social services we looked to trying to get her into a care home. Can you imagine the call to a care home that goes "Hi my Mum has recently recovered from Covid-19 and would like to come and live in your coronavirus free environment". During this time I was told quite categorically that the hospital was charging social services for my Mum being in hospital. I was told a figure that I cannot really believe and although I knew the system had been used before to avoid bed blocking I really thought it was a thing of the past.
The care home of our choice eventually agreed to take my Mum although I think, or rather I know, some serious pressure was put upon the home to do so. The home had all its carers living in at the time to reduce the chance of the virus getting into the home. I cannot praise these people enough, they are every bit as dedicated as the NHS staff. They isolated my Mum for seven days in a room of her own and had to "gown up" every time they went into her room. It must have been a huge worry for them and I cannot thank them enough for their dedication.

I thought I would share this story so that you can all understand the pressures that are there between organisations and also wanted to paint a positive picture at least of this care home as I know a lot of them are given a hard time.

My Mum is doing well and has actually put on 5lbs since being in the care home. We are having to sell the family home to pay for it but that sacrifice is minimal when you think of what so many people are going through in this awful time.
Click to expand...

Condolences Stick but it is good to hear about some positive news instead of the constant negativity......

As I've posted previously my mother is in a care home and I can not speak highly enough of the staff who are working under enormous pressure often having to compete with the huge health service for supplies etc but have so far managed to keep this bastard virus away from their premises......
 
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