Club watch

[PowerSpurs]

Maybe we do, I was trying to average between juniors, concessions and adult season tickets and came to around just over £60m, though probably didn’t factor in the more premium ticket areas nor the actual amounts of juniors/ concessions there definitely are so it probably will be closer to your figures, which makes it even more of a mockery to raise costs for fans already paying a huge premium. With concessions being shat on the figures will be even higher in due course. Although I do wonder how many concessions and those who may have initially been looking forward to becoming one will soon pass up on their tickets and if the club has the genuine demand to replace them. There’s always talk of around 80k being on the waiting list but people in the very high thousands have been able to purchase a season ticket in recent years so I’m not sure the demand is as great as it may seem on first glance. I’d also be intrigued to know how many on that waiting list are of South Korean/ Asian background too, Son won’t be around forever and so neither will their support, very few players in the game have an individual support club like he does.

Up until the last year or two we were the most expensive team in Europe to support for a number of years, so I’d say the fans have more than played their part. The fact we’re now further away in quality from both the Pochettino and Redknapp eras would imply it’s the club and not the fans not doing their part. We’re paying more money but the quality of player and football is worse? Doesn’t really add up.

There are always fluctuations in fortunes either side of the money baseline. If you get lucky and sign Modric and Bale or somehow acquire the Poch team for £100m then you are going to temporarily outperform. But to make that permanent you simply have to maximise income.

 

[PleaseNotPoll]

There are always fluctuations in fortunes either side of the money baseline. If you get lucky and sign Modric and Bale or somehow acquire the Poch team for £100m then you are going to temporarily outperform. But to make that permanent you simply have to maximise income.

Maximising income isn't as simple as charging the highest prices possible, though.
Treating supporters as pure customers ignores various aspects of that relationship.
Sure, the fans aren't going to wholesale stop going and use an alternative outlet.
That's also true of the fans of other clubs, though. You have a limited customer base.

That's looking at things from a purely business perspective, too.
Uli Hoeness had a good take on it when discussing season-ticket prices.
“We could charge more than £104. Let's say we charged £300. We'd get £2m more in income, but what's £2m to us?
“In a transfer discussion you argue about that sum for five minutes. But the difference between £104 and £300 is huge for the fan.
We do not think the fans are like cows, who you milk.”
“Football has got to be for everybody. That's the biggest difference between us and England.”

Keeping the stadium full and having fans turn up early, eat and drink and leave late makes a lot of money.
Having fans happy with the pricing, both of tickets and concessions, means that they'll continue to generate that revenue.
Making it affordable to bring children facilitates this and creates future customers.
Even looking at things incredibly cynically results in a better experience for the fans.

 

[PowerSpurs]

Maximising income isn't as simple as charging the highest prices possible, though.
Treating supporters as pure customers ignores various aspects of that relationship.
Sure, the fans aren't going to wholesale stop going and use an alternative outlet.
That's also true of the fans of other clubs, though. You have a limited customer base.

That's looking at things from a purely business perspective, too.
Uli Hoeness had a good take on it when discussing season-ticket prices.
“We could charge more than £104. Let's say we charged £300. We'd get £2m more in income, but what's £2m to us?
“In a transfer discussion you argue about that sum for five minutes. But the difference between £104 and £300 is huge for the fan.
We do not think the fans are like cows, who you milk.”
“Football has got to be for everybody. That's the biggest difference between us and England.”

Keeping the stadium full and having fans turn up early, eat and drink and leave late makes a lot of money.
Having fans happy with the pricing, both of tickets and concessions, means that they'll continue to generate that revenue.
Making it affordable to bring children facilitates this and creates future customers.
Even looking at things incredibly cynically results in a better experience for the fans.

Yes, I completely agree but it would be amazing if the Club didn't. I don't think we are anywhere near the maximum prices we could charge and still fill the stadium. There has always been a massive wait list for season tickets. I literally would never had got one if we hadn't built the stadium, so season tickets are being priced well below market value. I simply don't understand why fans who already have season tickets deserve to be treated advantageously to fans who don't.

 

[KingHotspur]

Yes, I completely agree but it would be amazing if the Club didn't. I don't think we are anywhere near the maximum prices we could charge and still fill the stadium. There has always been a massive wait list for season tickets. I literally would never had got one if we hadn't built the stadium, so season tickets are being priced well below market value. I simply don't understand why fans who already have season tickets deserve to be treated advantageously to fans who don't.

I get where you’re coming from with the supply/demand aspect but a football club is different to other business as it has the emotional aspect too.

If you wanna take the emotional part away and say we can charge more so think yourself lucky then the fans are right to say ‘we pay the most but don’t get the most’

The club need to be careful otherwise they will alienate the people who are the most important. A football club without fans is a soulless business and long term that isn’t sustainable

 

[Dier Hard]

There are always fluctuations in fortunes either side of the money baseline. If you get lucky and sign Modric and Bale or somehow acquire the Poch team for £100m then you are going to temporarily outperform. But to make that permanent you simply have to maximise income.

We had a Modric and Bale in Kane and Son but for the best part of five years failed to build around them and consequently lost one.

 

[humanbeingincroydon]

We had a Modric and Bale in Kane and Son but for the best part of five years failed to build around them and consequently lost one.

To be fair, when your coach has Tanguy Ndombele replacing Moussa Dembele, it's not really the club's fault

 

[Citizen Kane.]

Yes, I completely agree but it would be amazing if the Club didn't. I don't think we are anywhere near the maximum prices we could charge and still fill the stadium. There has always been a massive wait list for season tickets. I literally would never had got one if we hadn't built the stadium, so season tickets are being priced well below market value. I simply don't understand why fans who already have season tickets deserve to be treated advantageously to fans who don't.

Season tickets were born of the-then reality that the overwhelming majority of a club's supporters lived and worked in the immediate vicinity of the stadium.

Burnley FC introduced the first season ticket ahead of the 1884/85 season (@Spurf to confirm ), but it was called a 'club membership card' and could be used by any member of the family - again reflecting the strong familial/communal bonds between fans and clubs back then.

Times have more than changed. Clubs by design seek to expand their fanbases to all corners of the globe. Owning a season ticket is impractical for the overwhelming majority of Spurs fans (estimates suggest that we have 3million fans in the UK and up to 180million around the world). The shift to television and streaming sites has also impacted the centrality of a season ticket.

Modern technology pushes this further. In fact, there are now bars in the USA who offer a 'VR soccer experience' using cameras and microphones at certain stadia (I know Old Trafford and Anfield have already trialled it) that allows a supporter to sit in a bar in LA and 'feel' like they're sitting in the Kop.

The salient point is that 75% of all matchday fans are categorised as middle-class or higher, while the average price of PL tickets has risen 300-1000% in price depending on the club (we're closer to the upper end of that spectrum), far outpacing inflation and any normal price index. But market forces and supply/demand will always prevail and as you say, as long as there is a waiting list for tickets, the club will see no need to lower prices.

I'm just somewhat surprised that the club hasn't noticed that removing season tickets altogether will probably bring in significantly larger profits. We have so many supporters around the globe we'd comfortably fill the stadium for most home games, and all would be paying more than the ST holder's average.

 

[Dier Hard]

To be fair, when your coach has Tanguy Ndombele replacing Moussa Dembele, it's not really the club's fault

Yeah but he's not alone. His window mates, Lo Celso and Sessegnon, join him as some of the worst signings we've ever made, add in the multitude of awful RBs and Richarlison too and I reckon we could fill a decent portion of the XI of our worst ever pound for pound signings with players we've signed in the last 5 years alone. The fact Sessegnon would probably make it over Gilberto is a testament to how awful he was, because that Brazilian was a monstrosity to watch.

It did look like we were getting on track under Paratici but now I think we've taken a step back again. I think we could be in for a tough season.

 

[PleaseNotPoll]

Modern technology pushes this further. In fact, there are now bars in the USA who offer a 'VR soccer experience' using cameras and microphones at certain stadia (I know Old Trafford and Anfield have already trialled it) that allows a supporter to sit in a bar in LA and 'feel' like they're sitting in the Kop.

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Apparently the roof leaks after 10 minutes, too.

 

[PleaseNotPoll]

Yes, I completely agree but it would be amazing if the Club didn't. I don't think we are anywhere near the maximum prices we could charge and still fill the stadium. There has always been a massive wait list for season tickets. I literally would never had got one if we hadn't built the stadium, so season tickets are being priced well below market value. I simply don't understand why fans who already have season tickets deserve to be treated advantageously to fans who don't.

You don't think that loyalty should be rewarded?

 

[Citizen Kane.]

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Apparently the roof leaks after 10 minutes, too.

That's right.

If you buy the deluxe package, a bartender pours a jug of water over your head every ten minutes and someone dressed as Antony comes in an punches you at half time.

The one disadvantage is that everyone has to leave the bar at 70mins and boo loudly as they walk down the street.

 

[Citizen Kane.]

You don't think that loyalty should be rewarded?

Loyalty based on equity, yes.

There is nothing equitable about the ST system.

There is no meritocracy in a system built on 'we were here first'.

Why is a 60 year old fan who bought a season ticket 20 years ago more loyal than an 18 year old who can't get one?

It reminds me of the people who bought a semi-detached for £25k moaning that younger generations should just 'work harder and stop drinking starbucks' in order to buy a portaloo for £1m.

 

[PleaseNotPoll]

Loyalty based on equity, yes.

There is nothing equitable about the ST system.

There is no meritocracy in a system built on 'we were here first'.

Why is a 60 year old fan who bought a season ticket 20 years ago more loyal than an 18 year old who can't get one?

Because he's bought a season ticket for 20 years? Literally longer than the other guy has been alive.
Both may be equally loyal to Tottenham, but one has demonstrated it. He's had to watch that **** in person for decades!
There are other factors, of course, but how would you go about measuring them? How would you like tickets to be assigned?

 

[Dier Hard]

Loyalty based on equity, yes.

There is nothing equitable about the ST system.

There is no meritocracy in a system built on 'we were here first'.

Why is a 60 year old fan who bought a season ticket 20 years ago more loyal than an 18 year old who can't get one?

It feels like the answer to that is blatantly obvious...

 

[Citizen Kane.]

It feels like the answer to that is blatantly obvious...

No it isn't.

A person doesn't deserve credit for circumstance of birth.

It's the same ****e boomers come out moaning about millennials while sitting in the homes they bought outright for the equivalent of three years' pay, having graduated from a free university and straight into a job that paid them while they apprenticed.

The narrative they tell themselves is that they 'must' have worked harder and saved smarter, but it's total bull. They were just born in a fortuitous era.

 

[Dier Hard]

No it isn't.

A person doesn't deserve credit for circumstance of birth.

It's the same ****e boomers come out moaning about millennials while sitting in the homes they bought outright for the equivalent of three years' pay, having graduated from a free university and straight into a job that paid them while they apprenticed.

It's not the same, there's literally **** all comparison between them. A better comparison is like being at a job, the fresh out of school apprentice isn't going to be earning a manager or director's wage.

A Spurs season ticket holder at 60 has shown loyalty over decades, through good and bad, an 18 year old is just starting out their journey and has yet to show they've got that same loyalty in them. Just like all fans nowadays, you earn the right to become a ST holder by being a member, purchasing as many tickets as possible whilst waiting to move up the waiting list.

 

[Citizen Kane.]

Because he's bought a season ticket for 20 years? Literally longer than the other guy has been alive.
Both may be equally loyal to Tottenham, but one has demonstrated it. He's had to watch that **** in person for decades!
There are other factors, of course, but how would you go about measuring them? How would you like tickets to be assigned?

Loyalty is only demonstrated and worthy of reward when the counter-forces are of considerable strength.

So for example, if I choose to fly with a certain airline every time I travel even though I could use someone else and get to the same place quicker or cheaper, I have demonstrated loyalty by resisting that temptation and sticking to the provider I started with. They might then reward my decision with airmiles, discounts or occasional upgrades etc.

By contrast, how likely do you think it is that a person who was born and raised a Spurs fan and lives in the area will be tempted to start supporting another club? We're talking about the weakest of counter-forces here.

 

[Citizen Kane.]

It's not the same, there's literally **** all comparison between them. A better comparison is like being at a job, the fresh out of school apprentice isn't going to be earning a manager or director's wage.

Productivity, output and experience are not the same things as loyalty.

In fact the exact opposite can be argued. A STEM subject genius a year out of college at a small start-up who gets offered a lucrative contract with a Big Tech firm but turns it down, can be said to be more 'loyal' than a colleague at the same start-up who has been there for a decade but never received better offers.

 

[Citizen Kane.]

There are other factors, of course, but how would you go about measuring them? How would you like tickets to be assigned?

You can't measure loyalty easily as it is mostly an emotion perceived by the shared imagination of two or more people.

You can build arbitrary social constructs that create a measure for loyalty.

None of them are particularly useful when talking about something where counter-forces are as weak as they tend to be in football. I support Spurs because my great-grandfather, grandfather and father all did. I shop in a certain shop because I like their range of products, their reward system and they fit within my budget. Other shops also do, which is why I am seen as a 'loyal customer'. The two decisions are totally incomparable. One is emotional, the other is practical.

How would I like tickets to be assigned?

Totally at random from a pre-registered pool of interested buyers. We more than have the technology and fanbase to make that happen and for it to be very successful.

The problem is it will only work if all clubs start doing it, which won't happen.

 

[PleaseNotPoll]

Loyalty is only demonstrated and worthy of reward when the counter-forces are of considerable strength.

So for example, if I choose to fly with a certain airline every time I travel even though I could use someone else and get to the same place quicker or cheaper, I have demonstrated loyalty by resisting that temptation and sticking to the provider I started with. They might then reward my decision with airmiles, discounts or occasional upgrades etc.

By contrast, how likely do you think it is that a person who was born and raised a Spurs fan and lives in the area will be tempted to start supporting another club? We're talking about the weakest of counter-forces here.

I know quite a large number of older, long-term football fans that have done exactly that.
They still support the original club and will watch them on TV, but they attend lower league matches and have season tickets at those clubs.
The reasons vary from financial and value decisions, to disillusion with either the top-level game or those running it or their team.
Enfield, Dulwich Hamlet and similar sides in the 7th or so tier seem to be preferred, but also Orient or Barnet.