Off Topic Brexit

[Dorty Dogbreath]

Oh fecking come on, business is firmly behind remain because big business makes big money with Europe as it is and doesn't want to rock the boat. And as for stirring up the Troubles, not many Irish people under the age of forty are going to put up with that, they are used to peace. There simply is no appetite for a return to an armed struggle. More scaremongering more like it.

 

[mickeybnufc]

Oh this kind of comment is just bizarre.

We now have considerably more facts than we had at the time. We're now making an informed vote, and none of the lies about £350m for the NHS, etc., will be out there. People now know livelihoods are on the line, industry is on the line, even resparking the Troubles could be on the line. Now we have ALL the facts and aren't swayed by lying, self-serving morons like Farage and Johnson, let's have another whip round.

We need to go back on the vote. Not just for obvious economic reasons, but because our political system needs to be burned to the ground and it starts with reneging on a referendum. We need real fury towards this government; fury from remainers who hold ****ers like Cameron, Johnson, et al, responsible for the ****wittery, fury from leavers who will feel utterly cheated by ****ty politicians. The country needs to unite in a common goal of abolishing politics and rebuilding from scratch. If we allow these stupid tosspots to take us out of the EU, they'll be doing it purely for self-preservation; they know they've all got jobs to do if we do leave or have to do a new deal. What they do NOT want is to deal with all the attention once this **** show is over.

Mark my words - these ****ers will stretch this out for as long as humanly possible. I only hope that Corbyn does enough to put if back to referendum - not for his sake, but so we can get on with the important job of destroying Tory/Labour.

So we now have all the facts, like what,it's guess work by all of them,as I said before this has never been done,so how can anybody know for sure.The last Governor of the Bank of England said we shouldn't be afraid of a no deal Brexit,plenty of Major Business have have geared up for no deal, just leave,it's what the majority of voters want.nothing bizarre about that,just Democracy at work.

 

[Lord Jonjomort]

Oh fecking come on, business is firmly behind remain because big business makes big money with Europe as it is and doesn't want to rock the boat. And as for stirring up the Troubles, not many Irish people under the age of forty are going to put up with that, they are used to peace. More scaremongering more like it.

Correct me if I'm missing something, but isn't business doing well kind of important? Who do you think will be the first out of the door if businesses can't make enough money? The CEO's not going to say "listen, fellas, I'm going to step down because my salary saves us a fortune. You's lot keep making cars, though." Economic uncertainty is awful for everyone, but those at the bottom will be the first to feel it.

 

[Dorty Dogbreath]

Correct me if I'm missing something, but isn't business doing well kind of important? Who do you think will be the first out of the door if businesses can't make enough money? The CEO's not going to say "listen, fellas, I'm going to step down because my salary saves us a fortune. You's lot keep making cars, though." Economic uncertainty is awful for everyone, but those at the bottom will be the first to feel it.

Once the dust has settled, life will go on as normal.

 

[Lord Jonjomort]

So we now have all the facts, like what,it's guess work by all of them,as I said before this has never been done,so how can anybody know for sure.The last Governor of the Bank of England said we shouldn't be afraid of a no deal Brexit,plenty of Major Business have have geared up for no deal, just leave,it's what the majority of voters want.nothing bizarre about that,just Democracy at work.

Majority of what? People who voted at the time? It wasn't the country's majority, it was 51.89% of 72.21%. That's 37.47% of the total population of the country at the time over the voting age (around 45m in total, of a grand total of just shy of 67m people now). There's literally millions of people of a legal age who now have no say, millions more who are having this put upon them by a great bunch of old people this vote, really, doesn't even apply to (retired, I'm looking at you).

The whole thing is a socio-economic clusterfuck.

 

[Lord Jonjomort]

Once the dust has settled, life will go on as normal.

We're trapped, though, mate - politicians now will do absolutely everything they can to ensure the dust never settles. They've ****ed the whole thing up, everyone knows it, they will drag this **** on for as long as they can.

If there's no Brexit to piss about with, all attention will turn to the political shambles.

 

[mickeybnufc]

One of the most likely outcomes of this process will be that the UK enters into a common market type relationship. That would essentially make it a second tier member of the EU: obliged to follow the rules but with no ability to influence them.

I am virtually certain that no one voted for that result. The only way Leave voters are going to get a Brexit that satisfies them is if they are given a chance to vote on a specific method of leaving (no deal or whatever) and secure a majority. Of course, the majority may vote for something else.

A second referendum will give the majority what they want. Without it, we are going to get something that nobody wants.

But the Common Market was what was voted for in the beginning,a trading union with Europe, no one voted to be ruled by Brussels that just sneaked in over the years,with Governments just letting it happen,never thought there was a second tier in the EU,don't they all get a vote? and if we were out why would we obliged to follow their rules? we would be free to trade with anyone including EU

 

[Dorty Dogbreath]

We're trapped, though, mate - politicians now will do absolutely everything they can to ensure the dust never settles. They've ****ed the whole thing up, everyone knows it, they will drag this **** on for as long as they can.

Correct, mate, they will. If only the EU and British politicians had agreed a compromise before 2016, the referendum probably wouldn't have happened. You are right about our polutical system being screwed though, I'd like to see an electable and answerable British government in power but I'm not holding my breath.

 

[Lord Jonjomort]

Correct, mate, they will. If only the EU and British politicians had agreed a compromise before 2016, the referendum probably wouldn't have happened. You are right about our polutical system being screwed though, I'd like to see an electable and answerable British government in power but I'm not holding my breath.

Somethings got to give. There's not enough rich people around to keep the Tories at the top, and Labour have done absolutely **** all for the poor. Times have changed, our system - build when there was about 25 people in the country - doesn't work at this level. You cannot keep putting Eton boys in top jobs, watching them fail, then repeating the process. My local MP is that spineless Tory toerag Dominic Grieve - I'm not going to be vying for power, but I'll be lobbying everyone to NOT vote Labour/Conservative. As said by Freddd, the Blue/Red dichotomy has to collapse at whatever cost. That should be goal 1.

 

[mickeybnufc]

Majority of what? People who voted at the time? It wasn't the country's majority, it was 51.89% of 72.21%. That's 37.47% of the total population of the country at the time over the voting age (around 45m in total, of a grand total of just shy of 67m people now). There's literally millions of people of a legal age who now have no say, millions more who are having this put upon them by a great bunch of old people this vote, really, doesn't even apply to (retired, I'm looking at you).

The whole thing is a socio-economic clusterfuck.

So your saying anyone over retirement age shoud'nt be allowed to vote,how arrogant and narrow minded you are,are you one of the Millennium generation who think they know it all and are always right,so it's f*** you old Bastards we know best and you all should be in Homes oh how little you know.

 

[Dorty Dogbreath]

Somethings got to give. There's not enough rich people around to keep the Tories at the top, and Labour have done absolutely **** all for the poor. Times have changed, our system - build when there was about 25 people in the country - doesn't work at this level. You cannot keep putting Eton boys in top jobs, watching them fail, then repeating the process. My local MP is that spineless Tory toerag Dominic Grieve - I'm not going to be vying for power, but I'll be lobbying everyone to NOT vote Labour/Conservative. As said by Freddd, the Blue/Red dichotomy has to collapse at whatever cost. That should be goal 1.

I bet there ain't half been some knives out behind the scenes, especially within the Conservative Party. It would be very interesting to be a fly on the wall during meetings of their MPs. And as for that pygmy Corbyn, as I said yesreday he only has two E-grade A Levels to his name. How is he qualified to make a decision on Brexit given what has been said on here about a lack of education?

 

[Lord Jonjomort]

So your saying anyone over retirement age shoud'nt be allowed to vote,how arrogant and narrow minded you are,are you one of the Millennium generation who think they know it all and are always right,so it's f*** you old Bastards we know best and you all should be in Homes oh how little you know.

Millenial?! Holy ****, I wish. I'm just realistic about who it impacts and there are people who voted leave and are now dead who have left their decision for young people who had no say. A referendum should be an immediate and informed decision. It should require a minimum turnout or be mandatory vote. It should not be some half-baked bollocks, where one of the "parties" (VoteLeave) are FINED due to misinformation and lies, and where any result cannot be implemented for AT LEAST 2 years. It's utterly disgusting, an abomination, a vote-winning fabrication of Cameron's **** politics borne out of fear of Farage and his loony far-right-but-not-quite-EDL followers. So I may know little, but at least I know that voting for leave would be a complete and utter disaster. Not because it's bad, but because we have "Career Politicians" in charge who care of nothing but themsevles and have none of the guile, wit or intelligence to actually 'lead' the country.

If it was down to me, I'd only allow online votes - in my humble opinion, if you can't get online and work out how to use a website by now you have no right to make this kind of choice. But then, if it was down to me, I'd turn Parliament into flats, abolish Lords, give N.I. to Ireland and introduce flat rate tax, wealth caps, profit caps, bring in proportional representation, encourage neutrality and independence across every constituency and charge for the NHS. I'd also nationalise railways.

 

[Dorty Dogbreath]

Millenial?! Holy ****, I wish. I'm just realistic about who it impacts and there are people who voted leave and are now dead who have left their decision for young people who had no say. A referendum should be an immediate and informed decision. It should require a minimum turnout or be mandatory vote. It should not be some half-baked bollocks, where one of the "parties" (VoteLeave) are FINED due to misinformation and lies, and where any result cannot be implemented for AT LEAST 2 years. It's utterly disgusting, an abomination, a vote-winning fabrication of Cameron's **** politics borne out of fear of Farage and his loony far-right-but-not-quite-EDL followers. So I may know little, but at least I know that voting for leave would be a complete and utter disaster. Not because it's bad, but because we have "Career Politicians" in charge who care of nothing but themsevles and have none of the guile, wit or intelligence to actually 'lead' the country.

If it was down to me, I'd only allow online votes - in my humble opinion, if you can't get online and work out how to use a website by now you have no right to make this kind of choice. But then, if it was down to me, I'd turn Parliament into flats, abolish Lords, give N.I. to Ireland and introduce flat rate tax, wealth caps, profit caps, bring in proportional representation, encourage neutrality and independence across every constituency and charge for the NHS. I'd also nationalise railways.

Howay man, mate, declaring Ireland one country would definitely be a catalyst for a reawakening of the Troubles. I think you would have to get past Arlene Foster first. Quite a scary thought actually.

 

[Freddd]

But the Common Market was what was voted for in the beginning,a trading union with Europe, no one voted to be ruled by Brussels that just sneaked in over the years,with Governments just letting it happen,never thought there was a second tier in the EU,don't they all get a vote? and if we were out why would we obliged to follow their rules? we would be free to trade with anyone including EU

Correct.

My point was that a Common Market arrangement isn't what the Leave voters wanted. It isn't what Remain voters wanted. It is something that no one wants. it is difficult to see how it will be avoided without a second referendum.

 

[Magnet]

One of the most likely outcomes of this process will be that the UK enters into a common market type relationship. That would essentially make it a second tier member of the EU: obliged to follow the rules but with no ability to influence them.

I am virtually certain that no one voted for that result. The only way Leave voters are going to get a Brexit that satisfies them is if they are given a chance to vote on a specific method of leaving (no deal or whatever) and secure a majority. Of course, the majority may vote for something else.

A second referendum will give the majority what they want. Without it, we are going to get something that nobody wants.

Or there might just not be a majority for any one option. Then what?

 

[Captainchaos.]

Just have a revote seeing as the people want it there's no need to worry is there and if the second vote is remain that's the will of the people .

 

[Freddd]

Or there might just not be a majority for any one option. Then what?

That can be avoided. Let's say the choices are May's deal, no deal and remain. The questions would be

1. As between leaving on May's deal or remaining, would you prefer to leave or remain ?
2. As between leaving with no deal and remaining, would you prefer to leave or to remain ?

There will be a majority on each question. If there is a majority for leave on either, we leave. If there is a majority for leave on both, biggest majority wins. If there is a majority for remain on both, we remain. The majority vote will govern. The will of he people will be served.

 

[Heed]

That can be avoided. Let's say the choices are May's deal, no deal and remain. The questions would be

1. As between leaving on May's deal or remaining, would you prefer to leave or remain ?
2. As between leaving with no deal and remaining, would you prefer to leave or to remain ?

There will be a majority on each question. If there is a majority for leave on either, we leave. If there is a majority for leave on both, biggest majority wins. If there is a majority for remain on both, we remain. The majority vote will govern. The will of he people will be served.

Whilst i disagree with having a second vote, if there was one, this would appear to be a sensible approach.
Unfortunately, the political establishment aren't and dont do sensible.
It's not in their nature.

 

[Captainchaos.]

Whilst i disagree with having a second vote, if there was one, this would appear to be a sensible approach.
Unfortunately, the political establishment aren't and dont do sensible.
It's not in their nature.

It's all their fault in the first place! They underestimated the stupidity of the general public and particularly the working class.

 

[Heed]

It's all their fault in the first place! They underestimated the stupidity of the general public and particularly the working class.

Chaos, for clarity, I'm totally opposed to a second vote.
Reference to the sensible approach is for the options suggested by Freddd, should a vote be forced on the public again.