Off Topic BREXIT

I'm voting out. It's not about who I trust or like/dislike on either side. For many reasons I believe our country will be better in the long run if we are out.

 

In. The Daily Mail. The fact that Boris

I see your left wing luvvies and give you

The Daily Mail.

 

We could vote out any buffoon after 4 years but try that with Herr Junker....

 

I think we can all agree that some of the campaigning on both sides has been terrible. Equally I think some of the arguments to either stay or leave are decent, but you don't hear them from most of the politicians, you have to dig. I'm leaning towards leaving but I'm extremely uncomfortable with giving the Tories free reign for nearly 4 years with no one to say, "hey you can't do that."

 

I'm sure you laughter is genuine; have you listened to the good arguments, the daft arguments and the challenges, criticism and calls for reason that many see and hear. It's democracy; what's your way?

 

I don't like UK politicians at all with the increased power they would have.

Our politicians are ****s and they would be even more ****ish without the shackles of the EU to hold them back.

 

What changed your mind?

 

Shackles hmm says it all really

 

Well blame the people who selfishly elected the unelectable Corbyn then - they're the ones who have given Cameron and Co free reign.

 

Not sure at all what your point is.

You think it's defeatist to challenge attempts to be ****ed by either and that choosing which one you want to be ****ed by isn't.

Hope you have some condoms handy.

 

I give you theGuardian and the odious Polly Toynbee,

 

Jonathan PIe has it nailed.

 

I'm sure he'll say "hey you can't do that" plenty of times but he can't really do anything about it. The local election results suggest that he isn't unelectable, if I remember correctly he did better than Blair did at first.

 

I'm voting Leave. The fact Britain has a deficit of democracy is no reason to vote to Remain. You need to remove one layer of bureaucracy and accountability and work from there. We leave the EU and we work at reforming our own democracy. I'm actually astounded by how many on the Left support Remain considering the EU is such a bureaucratic free-market capitalist institution. Since when have the Left ever give a **** about GDP and growth considering it's a capitalist phenomena and the antithesis of seizing the means of production and fruit of all labour etc.? I think this entire campaign has exposed people's political and philosophical principles, or lack thereof in some cases. If you consider yourself left-wing and are citing centre-right politicians, banks, big business owners and capitalist economists as reasons for Remain, then you either don't actually understand capitalism and socialism or your principles mean **** all. If you like free-market capitalism and are voting Remain then that's totally understandable. Left-wing people voting Remain have very flimsy principles if any at all. The EU hasn't assured peace in Europe, it didn't prevent the wars in the former Yugoslavia (even if they weren't members at the time it hardly matters when it claims to represent all of 'Europe') and it didn't prevent the Ukrainian crisis either. If you're referencing peace between France and Germany then NATO's responsible for that. The EU isn't internationalist or inclusive, it's actually openly hostile to Russia which is itself a European nation. On top of all that it is expensive, it is secretly organising TTIP without the consent of the European people and the European Commission is composed of unelected bureaucrats not accountable to popular mandate. Leaving won't be easy, it won't be beneficial in the short term but hopefully it is worth it in the long run and may even bring the entire institution to collapse.

 

You can't trump The Daily Mail and Peter Hitchins.

 

On balance, I'm in. Lots of problems to sort out but negative campaigning has clouded the issue. I just can't take Boris Johnson seriously. Forget the hype, Remain is nailed on.

Double a bet up with Clinton as the next US President and you're on a winner.

 

I'm not making political comments but I don't think you should base your vote on personalities, you can't lump in Dennis Skinner and the likes of the late Tony Benn with the right wingers you mention

 

Good, I'm hoping exactly for that. Hopefully, Northern Ireland unites with the Republic; let Dublin subsidise the basket case and sectarian backwater. Likewise, I hope the Scots gain their independence. Wales might even be more Eurosceptic than England so we'll see on that.

 

And the USA would claim that their system is democracy while you ridicule it as inferior

I consider both to be a sham.

My way would be for an informed populace to take direct responsibility for their own governance and not submissively doff their cap's to some supposed elite who as history has shown, act only in their own interests.

That's not very popular I know, but you did ask.