Off Topic YOUR VOTE COUNTED...

[saintanton]

Remember when the country went decimal?, remember the country were told that things would be temporarily inflated but would go back to pre-decimal prices once the people got used to using the new coins?
A 6/- of chips for instance became 5p(doubled in price because the lowest denomination decimal silver coin was the 5p piece)and that price and most others on everyday essentials never did revert back to their true value.
I feel that a similar effect will be felt if the "No" vote wins, but my worry is for the kids and grandkids that will have to live with the legacy of whichever way the vote goes, I see your point over Farage and Johnson taking centre stage should the country vote out, but tbf Cameron and Osborne are abhorrent in their war on the poorest in our society.
Its wrong to pidgeon hole all of the people with genuine fears on immigration/EU migration as racist, at the current rate now there aren't enough homes to accommodate those that have moved to the UK so what happens if as expected the EU expands?, there is an EU law that says citizens of member states can travel to and live within any member countries so this country is bound by that agreement but doesn't build enough homes to cope with the influx everybody could see was coming.
But that means the greater onus within the EU to spend more on housing and infrastructure with non EU funding lies with the likes of the UK because the poorer Eastern European nations can't do just that.

Must admit my head is ****ed at the moment, and seeing people I don't like on BOTH sides of the argument isn't helping.

I'm not doing that. I have said that if anything, I'd call it xenophobia rather than racism but I accept that some have genuine concerns over it. I agree that immigration is an issue that needs addressing, even if it's only people's perception of it. I think that the downside of immigration is being accentuated, and the positives are being generally glossed over. Whatever the truth though, it should be looked at rationally - without the hysteria being provoked at the moment - and the pros and cons evaluated.
As far as I'm concerned this issue, like others, is best solved from within. It's being used as a political device by some for their own ends. I believe it's wrong to think that it will be miraculously solved by leaving, and I don't think we should be making our decisions based on a single issue anyway.
This has always been my problem with the exit arguments - it's far too easy to see what's wrong and to shout about it without having any proper plan on how to improve it. I don't think they have any real idea as to what to do next if they win.

 

[saintanton]

I don't disagree with much of that...except:

Almost any vote is primarily a short sighted selfish one. My Remain vote is a selfish one...I'm not thinking of some high minded European cooperative that has stabilised the continent or prevented war...I'm thinking I work in public govt...more cuts will come if we leave and I might lose my job..prices will go up...more people around me...friends family will be unemployed...our political agreements might destabilise and we will be back to murdering each other....that's selfish mate. I don't want to see the happen to benefit me and mine.

If we wanted the utopia we would all vote for a party who taxed us 50% and paid for perfect public services..we never have but we in general like to try and balance sacrifice for the common good with what we think we can comfortably afford. But then doesn't the argument of selfish short sightedness actually go against an out vote? If people look out for themselves first why would they knowingly punish themselves as a protest? I think it's more serious than that..it's an attempt to take control however tactically unsound, because as you say lots of people feel they've lost it..and aren't they right? Isn't it the political elites that removed it from them (or they allowed to remove it from them)? So voting leave in their eyes IS self sacrificing..they know they will be hurt financially but want to take the politicians and corporations and bankers down a peg or two in one of the few ways they think they can. And look at what the debate has done to the two main political parties...will people jump at this very real opportunity to take charge of them no matter what way the vote goes? Probably not but the opportunity is there.

My evidence for Farage being limited is yes a guess but an educated one. He's a one policy politician that derives support from still having to accomplish that goal. Once he does? Then what. Where are his credible policies on anything else that will get him elected? He boasted about increased support but never got elected to the institution he thinks is more important than any other so sits in the one he supposedly wants nothing to do with? Yet again there seems to be an assumption that all Brexiteers are Farage clones. What will keep him around is a close vote either way because a very close vote will mean we will not leave in my opinion. A big stay and he is gone. A big leave and he fades away.

Boris like Cameron is ****ed either way...too much blood spilled in party.

You allude to a Brexit vote as a protest vote in response to not being able to change something seen as not working...leaving is changing..does anyone that originally voted in think they'd see the EU as it is now? Will it hurt ...yes...does that mean the country will never ever succeed again ...no. same as staying...does staying save the EU short term yes...will it stop the very real rise in every member country of a nationalistic right..no..that problem will still have to be dealt with. It also doesn't guranteed that other countries won't try and leave themselves and it all breaks up anyway...this myth that the populations of continental Europe all love the EU is nonsense...

If we were ignoring self harm and being high minded would trying to cause the break up of the current EU not be a laudable goal..remove those that refuse to change so the people of Europe can start again and build agreements that help them rather than corporations...you'll laugh at that I did too but it's as much an ideal as any socialist ideal that while improving our country in the attempt is never quite achieved fully.

I am. I'd have thought that if one agreed that that has been the effect then surely that benefit would outweigh any or all arguments against it.

 

[Page_Moss_Kopite]

I'm not doing that. I have said that if anything, I'd call it xenophobia rather than racism but I accept that some have genuine concerns over it. I agree that immigration is an issue that needs addressing, even if it's only people's perception of it. I think that the downside of immigration is being accentuated, and the positives are being generally glossed over. Whatever the truth though, it should be looked at rationally - without the hysteria being provoked at the moment - and the pros and cons evaluated.
As far as I'm concerned this issue, like others, is best solved from within. It's being used as a political device by some for their own ends. I believe it's wrong to think that it will be miraculously solved by leaving, and I don't think we should be making our decisions based on a single issue anyway.
This has always been my problem with the exit arguments - it's far too easy to see what's wrong and to shout about it without having any proper plan on how to improve it. I don't think they have any real idea as to what to do next if they win.

I wasn't saying you were painting all the "out" voters racists saint, I was expanding your point about Farage tbh.
His politics and his stance on immigration makes it difficult for anyone with concerns over the issue not to be tarred with the same brush.
Because nations in the EU are not equal in wealth and or population there will always be problems for the richer nations with the issue within its membership.

Problems ahead with the immigration issue whichever way the country votes imho.

 

[saintanton]

I wasn't saying you were painting all the "out" voters racists saint, I was expanding your point about Farage tbh.
His politics and his stance on immigration makes it difficult for anyone with concerns over the issue not to be tarred with the same brush.
Because nations in the EU are not equal in wealth and or population there will always be problems for the richer nations with the issue within its membership.

Problems ahead with the immigration issue whichever way the country votes imho.

I know you weren't accusing me Page - just making my position doubly clear.
I fully agree with the bold bit. I've never been convinced of the wisdom or practicality of the single currency, tbh. There's too much of a disparity between say, Germany at one end and Greece at the other.

Migration is indeed a problem for the world now - globalisation has brought about a new phase of mass movement of people. It's a problem we need to solve, not one we can run away from.

 

[Ivan Dobsky]

Just back from a prostate biopsy (thought I'd share that with you). One Asian doctor, one Afro-Caribbean nurse. Every patient white, middle/old aged. As Corbyn says, you far, far more likely to be treated by an immigrant as you are being in bed by one.

And now the anaesthetic is wearing off my ringpiece feels like (I imagine) Geotge Michael's - how the **** anyone gets pleasure from things up the arse is beyond me. My apologies to my ex for the constant begging and pestering. And as fate has it - she was on duty on the Day Care ward and handed me my nappies with a ****ing smile.

Frank wished this on me.

 

[Ivan Dobsky]

I wasn't saying you were painting all the "out" voters racists saint, I was expanding your point about Farage tbh.
His politics and his stance on immigration makes it difficult for anyone with concerns over the issue not to be tarred with the same brush.
Because nations in the EU are not equal in wealth and or population there will always be problems for the richer nations with the issue within its membership.

Problems ahead with the immigration issue whichever way the country votes imho.

Absolutely.

 

[carlthejackal]

I wasn't saying you were painting all the "out" voters racists saint, I was expanding your point about Farage tbh.
His politics and his stance on immigration makes it difficult for anyone with concerns over the issue not to be tarred with the same brush.
Because nations in the EU are not equal in wealth and or population there will always be problems for the richer nations with the issue within its membership.

Problems ahead with the immigration issue whichever way the country votes imho.

The thing is that when so called mainstream politicians like Gove Boris ids et al speak the language of UKIP, they are playing with fire. Do they really want to wake up the sleeping monster? Once it's fully awake, can they control it or are we all going to be destroyed by it? The irony is that the likes of Patel should know better than to play this despicable game. I was disturbed when she said "we have to stem the flow of immigrants into this country. And millions of Turkish migrants might soon join." i thought she really ought not to have said these things

 

[carlthejackal]

Just back from a prostate biopsy (thought I'd share that with you). One Asian doctor, one Afro-Caribbean nurse. Every patient white, middle/old aged. As Corbyn says, you far, far more likely to be treated by an immigrant as you are being in bed by one.

And now the anaesthetic is wearing off my ringpiece feels like (I imagine) Geotge Michael's - how the **** anyone gets pleasure from things up the arse is beyond me. My apologies to my ex for the constant begging and pestering. And as fate has it - she was on duty on the Day Care ward and handed me my nappies with a ****ing smile.

Frank wished this on me.

I feel for you mate. It is not a pleasant procedure.

 

[saintanton]

Just back from a prostate biopsy (thought I'd share that with you). One Asian doctor, one Afro-Caribbean nurse. Every patient white, middle/old aged. As Corbyn says, you far, far more likely to be treated by an immigrant as you are being in bed by one.

And now the anaesthetic is wearing off my ringpiece feels like (I imagine) Geotge Michael's - how the **** anyone gets pleasure from things up the arse is beyond me. My apologies to my ex for the constant begging and pestering. And as fate has it - she was on duty on the Day Care ward and handed me my nappies with a ****ing smile.

Frank wished this on me.

Considerably more information than I feel was strictly necessary.




Hope the results are ok.

 

[Ivan Dobsky]

Hahahahaha! Gisele - you let the cat out the bag there. Brexit have NO PROMISES that immigration will fall. All that's left is Project Hate.

 

[Ivan Dobsky]

Used to be a hard choice of who to hate most between Parsons and Burchill when they were together. Tony wins that now.

 

[Rorschach]

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[moreinjuredthanowen]

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Wonderful summation.

 

[carlthejackal]

I am sure both sides of the debate have their share of thickos, ****heads, ignorants, misguided, and al.

But it seems to me that there are more bigots in the Leave side (perhaps understandably). I have been listening to the 5Live phone in today. All the various arguments seem to just go over some people's heads. "Too many immigrants are swamping our NHS and Schools" is what you hear. And I am not saying that all Leave are like that and that there are not thougthful non bigoted people in that camp. It is that it seems there are many more on the Leave side!

 

[saintanton]

Wonderful summation.

I suppose that style appeals to some.
I hope that people can see through the desperately unfunny presentation (I cringed often) and realise that there are a lot of good, important points made.

 

[carlthejackal]

Boris Johnson said this morning: If you are undecided, the safest thing to do is Vote Leave.

Ehh?? Trying to persuade undecideds who trust him

 

[moreinjuredthanowen]

I am going to call this one.

..................

I ignore averaged polls and polls in papers with agendas. Both have tainted views.

I have gone back to yougov.co.uk for their poll.

On the 6th June this was 43% stay 42% leave and on 10th was 42% stay 43% leave

This I feel this is the best indicator of the solid vote, thus we are talking about a really close call

Sad to include this but on the 16th Jo Cox was murdered and on the 18th the scumbag bade is message clear in court. since then I can't be sure about polls. there are a few polls not so affects and some swinging heavily to stay which should be ignored.

there have been several widely swinging pools as outliers that I'd not even look at but my GUESS would be we will see 51/52% remain.

I base this on 3 things

1. Undecideds are probably not going to all vote. frankly all thats going to do is take a large swathe of votes out of the system so there will be a very tight outcome.

2. The vote for leave is considered hard and fast. if its 42/45% then you'd expect it to be very very close to 50% on the day.

3. The common sense factor. After all the bull is said and done and its time to vote there's enough there to take pause on and floods of immigrants in the NHS is not really as direct an experience or threat as the pay packet issues.

51% Stay 49% leave.

 

[HugoEkitikeN01]

Sadiq Khan and Boris Johnson had a go at one another last night, Sadiq Khan called Boris Johnson a liar to his face.

 

[Ivan Dobsky]

Sadiq Khan and Boris Johnson had a go at one another last night, Sadiq Khan called Boris Johnson a liar to his face.

A big fat liar, no less. Masterstroke by Khan with the 'Project Hate' one. Each time Brexit use Fear, respond with Hate.

 

[Guywanderer]

Don't vote remain don't vote remain I just don't think you understand I want to live here and drink warm beer in England's green and pleasant land