Off Topic YOUR VOTE COUNTED...

[moreinjuredthanowen]

TTIP is worrying, but get this straight IT DOESN'T mean privatisation of the NHS - no more than if the government of the day allows it. The railways is a better example - the train operating companies, when they come up for franchise renewal, would be open to US bids. The same with any parts of the NHS that are already run by private franchises. But the government of the day has total power over what is and isn't privatised.

So remember that - if Boris, IDSS, Gove-adder or Farright are ever in power and have signed a TTIP agreement then bluster that they can't help but privatise the NHS then it's bullshit, and it has more to do with the fact that all of them have, at some stage, supported various measures of privatising the NHS whole or in part.

fair points.... seeing corbyn effective end the labour party means the tories will do the same thing either in or out of eu.

 

[Ivan Dobsky]

Some of the polls are not independently carried out and are manipulated especially by Leave side.

Important point (just like the Scottish referendum) is to remember that Out have dominated the noisy side of the debate, very much including internet polls. There's a lot of white noise out there on the net, and telephone polls are far more accurate.

 

[carlthejackal]

TTIP is worrying, but get this straight IT DOESN'T mean privatisation of the NHS - no more than if the government of the day allows it. The railways is a better example - the train operating companies, when they come up for franchise renewal, would be open to US bids. The same with any parts of the NHS that are already run by private franchises. But the government of the day has total power over what is and isn't privatised.

So remember that - if Boris, IDSS, Gove-adder or Farright are ever in power and have signed a TTIP agreement then bluster that they can't help but privatise the NHS then it's bullshit, and it has more to do with the fact that all of them have, at some stage, supported various measures of privatising the NHS whole or in part.

It is interesting how Gove the gover has toned down the rhetoric. On 5live this morning, he did not mention that Leave will create 300,000 additonal jobs like he did before and will make us more prosperous and he said we spent hundreds of thousands on the EU rather than use the 350 figure. And he said the money we "save" will be spent on prorities like the NHS instead of saying we WILL spend all the savings on the NHS.

 

[DirtyFrank]

Doesn't matter where it comes from if it makes sense. So it's about reading it and seeing whether or not you agree, not dismissing it because of its source.
The article goes a bit far towards the end, but it's perfectly correct, imo, that a vote to leave is a push to the right.
As if we needed one.

I'd already read it mate. I read all the opinion pieces in the main papers that I don't have to pay for.

And tone and origin of thought does matter, even if true. Goes to my point that DD responded to as if that article answered me rather than confirmed what I was saying.

Everytime a significant number of the working class depart from the path the liberal left have set for them it's met with incredulity and an arrogant dismissal that people can make choices of their own...even bad ones. Yet isn't that democracy?

It's always they've been tricked, hijacked as if they have no minds of their own..and that highlights the flaw in how liberal elites view the people they claim to speak for. They believe the poor old common man needs someone better, more intelligent to do their thinking for them. See us as sheep. The old "How dare you follow him! We do your thinking for you!"

It's years of that being reacted to by many as much as the fear being stoked by the right. Too many elites still assuming we are too stupid. Maybe we are but tough ****. As has been pointed out very few of the spokes people live beside us or even in country half the time.

 

[DirtyFrank]

AHHHHHHHHHHHH ..the Mail and the Sun, both of whom take your 'Stick one to the Establishment' line. Like buying a Cliff Richard record during the Punk era to worry your parents.

You're insults would be funny if remotely accurate mate...and my point being proven once again. You view anyone disagreeing with one of your points as part of some big generic group. I can hold an overall view and still be critical of the people on both sides of the argument for acting or saying certain things.

Never liked Cliff myself..and never rebelled for the sake of rebelling...that's a very middle class thing to do...along with having a "poor people" cause as a hobby.

Do I read the daily mail? Of course (not as often as you do it seems lol). Don't read the traditional red tops simply because they rarely print anything to read...obviously one in particular is avoided.

It's not my take about "sticking it to the establishment" since I'm not doing so and to be honest rarely do.

You seemed to have missed my point. It's that everytime a significant percentage of the population do stick it to the establishment they are instructed not to think for themselves...usually by the very same people that spend most of their time saying "stick it to the establishment". The irony is those people areas much the establishment as anyone else...

 

[Ivan Dobsky]

It is interesting how Gove the gover has toned down the rhetoric. On 5live this morning, he did not mention that Leave will create 300,000 additonal jobs like he did before and will make us more prosperous and he said we spent hundreds of thousands on the EU rather than use the 350 figure. And he said the money we "save" will be spent on prorities like the NHS instead of saying we WILL spend all the savings on the NHS.

That £350m was demolished three weekends ago when Gove-adder was on with Faisal Islam. He got Gove to come down to £100m (the true figure, according to the National Audit Office figure) that, in the spotlight, Gove blurted out 'Yes, we'll give that to the NHS!'. That was Friday - by Monday IDSS had said "Ah, yes, well we can't pledge that as we may lose that £100m due to the effects of leaving".

The last few days will be about immigration, immigration and immigration. Brexit have no economic case - they know it and their core support know it. And that's the point now - it's all about the middle 10% of undecideds, do they fear immigration more than economic collapse. My sense is that 75% of undecideds are more worried about immigration than the economy, and that's the rub - Corbyn was honest: you cannot set arbitrary limits on EU migrations (yet - though many in Germany and France want to). But Gove -adder is prattling about an Australian system again too - so we hand over immigration to the big businesses? We increase non-EU immigration proportionally to population? Scratch the surface and Brexit have no more answers than Remain.

 

[Ivan Dobsky]

I'd already read it mate. I read all the opinion pieces in the main papers that I don't have to pay for.

And tone and origin of thought does matter, even if true. Goes to my point that DD responded to as if that article answered me rather than confirmed what I was saying.

Everytime a significant number of the working class depart from the path the liberal left have set for them it's met with incredulity and an arrogant dismissal that people can make choices of their own...even bad ones. Yet isn't that democracy?

It's always they've been tricked, hijacked as if they have no minds of their own..and that highlights the flaw in how liberal elites view the people they claim to speak for. They believe the poor old common man needs someone better, more intelligent to do their thinking for them. See us as sheep. The old "How dare you follow him! We do your thinking for you!"

It's years of that being reacted to by many as much as the fear being stoked by the right. Too many elites still assuming we are too stupid. Maybe we are but tough ****. As has been pointed out very few of the spokes people live beside us or even in country half the time.

Are you more a pitchfork or a torch type of follower?

 

[moreinjuredthanowen]

corbyn is a pocket communist and wants the same as johnson.. he's a disaster for the country and labour.

if the likes of germand france and uk decide they will decide to lmit it and corbyns lies are as dangerous and sneaky as johnsons.

 

[carlthejackal]

That £350m was demolished three weekends ago when Gove-adder was on with Faisal Islam. He got Gove to come down to £100m (the true figure, according to the National Audit Office figure) that, in the spotlight, Gove blurted out 'Yes, we'll give that to the NHS!'. That was Friday - by Monday IDSS had said "Ah, yes, well we can't pledge that as we may lose that £100m due to the effects of leaving".

The last few days will be about immigration, immigration and immigration. Brexit have no economic case - they know it and their core support know it. And that's the point now - it's all about the middle 10% of undecideds, do they fear immigration more than economic collapse. My sense is that 75% of undecideds are more worried about immigration than the economy, and that's the rub - Corbyn was honest: you cannot set arbitrary limits on EU migrations (yet - though many in Germany and France want to). But Gove -adder is prattling about an Australian system again too - so we hand over immigration to the big businesses? We increase non-EU immigration proportionally to population? Scratch the surface and Brexit have no more answers than Remain.

Unless they (undecideds) feel that the economic collapse will affect them personally. Recession, downturn, job losses, relocation of business seem to affect only others. That is why Osbourne has mentioned the P and T words because taxes and pensions will affect individuals directly.

 

[DirtyFrank]

Are you more a pitchfork or a torch type of follower?

Neither...you do love your name calling don't you lol..

I read every opinion I can, I look for the facts that opinion attempts to represent and then I ask the what the motives behind the person giving it and their previous track record to assess their credibility.

You've obviously put me down as a right wing leaver. Try going back and reading my posts that were just as critical of the Brexit strategy and those running it.

And maybe the couple that stated I'm voting remain.

But like many in the Remain camp you're proving my point..That one sentence suggesting I'm a sheep or mindless follower...that exactly what a lot of people are reacting to. And you're pushing them into the arms of some very unsavoury people when a lot don't want to be lumped into that group.

 

[moreinjuredthanowen]

Unless they (undecideds) feel that the economic collapse will affect them personally. Recession, downturn, job losses, relocation of business seem to affect only others. That is why Osbourne has mentioned the P and T words because taxes and pensions will affect individuals directly.

I think personally that cameron should just keep quiet in next day or so and the remain will come back up. nothing more to be done. IMO the loud nasties will be more counter productive than anything.

 

[carlthejackal]

corbyn is a pocket communist and wants the same as johnson.. he's a disaster for the country and labour.

if the likes of germand france and uk decide they will decide to lmit it and corbyns lies are as dangerous and sneaky as johnsons.

I am generally not impressed with Corbyn (How did he manage to become the leader of the Labour party???). But I thought he did OK yesterday on Sky as he reflected the mood of a group of people who are still undecided and who can see negatives on both sides. Less of the hectoring and the certatinty and bravado of the Leave and Cameron/Osbourne and more of a considered view.

 

[DirtyFrank]

I think personally that cameron should just keep quiet in next day or so and the remain will come back up. nothing more to be done. IMO the loud nasties will be more counter productive than anything.

Indeed..the main Tory spokes people are as much a weakness as the raving loonies.

Too much bullying as the soul tactic on both sides.

 

[DirtyFrank]

The Labour party have been a disgrace...They've been virtually silent on the issue for all but 4 days of the campaign. They have seen it as an opportunity to let the Tories destroy themselves.

 

[Tobes]

That £350m was demolished three weekends ago when Gove-adder was on with Faisal Islam. He got Gove to come down to £100m (the true figure, according to the National Audit Office figure) that, in the spotlight, Gove blurted out 'Yes, we'll give that to the NHS!'. That was Friday - by Monday IDSS had said "Ah, yes, well we can't pledge that as we may lose that £100m due to the effects of leaving".

The last few days will be about immigration, immigration and immigration. Brexit have no economic case - they know it and their core support know it. And that's the point now - it's all about the middle 10% of undecideds, do they fear immigration more than economic collapse. My sense is that 75% of undecideds are more worried about immigration than the economy, and that's the rub - Corbyn was honest: you cannot set arbitrary limits on EU migrations (yet - though many in Germany and France want to). But Gove -adder is prattling about an Australian system again too - so we hand over immigration to the big businesses? We increase non-EU immigration proportionally to population? Scratch the surface and Brexit have no more answers than Remain.

The history of the British electorate would say otherwise mate.

When faced with economic risk the populous tend to take the safest option and in this case that's remain.

Those who are intending to vote based on immigration are less likely to be still undecided at this point imo as they are generally quite steadfast in that opinion

 

[moreinjuredthanowen]

The Labour party have been a disgrace...They've been virtually silent on the issue for all but 4 days of the campaign. They have seen it as an opportunity to let the Tories destroy themselves.

its deffo politics over the country.

but the tories did do it to themselves. they called this referendum and have split their party wide open.

but labour have a responsibility to the country.

 

[saintanton]

I'd already read it mate. I read all the opinion pieces in the main papers that I don't have to pay for.

And tone and origin of thought does matter, even if true. Goes to my point that DD responded to as if that article answered me rather than confirmed what I was saying.

Everytime a significant number of the working class depart from the path the liberal left have set for them it's met with incredulity and an arrogant dismissal that people can make choices of their own...even bad ones. Yet isn't that democracy?

It's always they've been tricked, hijacked as if they have no minds of their own..and that highlights the flaw in how liberal elites view the people they claim to speak for. They believe the poor old common man needs someone better, more intelligent to do their thinking for them. See us as sheep. The old "How dare you follow him! We do your thinking for you!"

It's years of that being reacted to by many as much as the fear being stoked by the right. Too many elites still assuming we are too stupid. Maybe we are but tough ****. As has been pointed out very few of the spokes people live beside us or even in country half the time.

Where to begin.....
Unfortunately, I do think a lot of the general public are sheep. I wouldn't class people on here like that - the very fact that we take time out to articulate our feelings would indicate that, but I think far too many are obsessed with their own petty, short term self-obsessed interests to give any thought to the big picture.

Democracy? We have nothing approaching a genuine democracy, and never will - for the very same reason. Genuine democracy would require everyone to have input in all decisions, and the majority just wouldn't be arsed.
Thatcher got in by offering people some short term personal gains at the expense of the nation as a whole, and the general public's venality was writ large for all to see. I see too many echoes of that now. She didn't believe in society, and it seems that in many ways she was right.

One of the main slogans of the Leavers is "Take Back Control". For whom, exactly? Are we so naive as to think we actually could have control? Ok. - we can vote out a government we don't like but only to replace it with one that is equally unappealing. The voting public do not have the ability to shape a government they actually like. And how could we if we can't agree between us what it it is we'd like?
We'll have no more control over anything - we'll just be handing it over to an even more right-wing faction than we currently have.
100 years of socialism has vastly improved the basic lot of the working classes, but it's done **** all about the disparity between the top and bottom. The gap between rich and poor has grown inexorably. It won't narrow under the likes of Boris -we'll be "taking back control" for him, not for us.
You said earlier you don't think he and Farage will prosper but where is your evidence for this - isn't it more a hope than a prediction?

Behind all the sophistry, I think a big factor in this is just the desire for change. The pattern is there for all to see - running a country to the satisfaction of the majority is an impossible task. Running one in a way that brings most benefits to a minority is always going to leave the majority dissatisfied. Periodically we get fed up with the incumbents and vote in some new ones - until we get fed up with them because they're no better. And so the cycle continues.
I think this is a similar scenario - "we can all see what's wrong with the EU so let's get out of it" - without any coherent strategy for life outside of it - and even though the evidence suggests we'll be no better off, and quite possibly considerably worse.

 

[HugoEkitikeN01]

Labour's problem is self inflicted. It began at the time of Michael Foot. Tony Blair came in, and made them credible again. But
it has not last.

 

[carlthejackal]

I think personally that cameron should just keep quiet in next day or so and the remain will come back up. nothing more to be done. IMO the loud nasties will be more counter productive than anything.

I think a reflective tone (like Corbyn's yesterday), might work more with the undecideds.

It is interesting that all on the Vote Leave side seem to be running away from Farage. Boris is saying he literally loves immigrants (who he can control ), Gove said this moring he didn't like some of Farage's actions and they sacked the board member (a health professional I think) who has been tweeting "racist" messages. I have noticed that they are hesitating when they use the words "flow (of immigrants), millions (of Turkish immigrants), control (like in pest control). They are starting to think about post 23rd June.

How many of them would be proud of what they said?

 

[moreinjuredthanowen]

I think a reflective tone (like Corbyn's yesterday), might work more with the undecideds.

It is interesting that all on the Vote Leave side seem to be running away from Farage. Boris is saying he literally loves immigrants (who he can control ), Gove said this moring he didn't like some of Farage's actions and they sacked the board member (a health professional I think) who has been tweeting "racist" messages. I have noticed that they are hesitating when they use the words "flow (of immigrants), millions (of Turkish immigrants), control (like in pest control). They are starting to think about post 23rd June.

How many of them would be proud of what they said?

Johnson knows every empire needs serfs.

Johnson and gove and the rest have to wake up to the fact they are tory and farage is ukip. they have to end him so the grand plan is to mouth off in a facist tone then last minute change tune and single out the nasty nasty ukip to shore up the tories in the end.

Deffo they have thought about post referendum but the mask slipped and can't just be brought back up.