Off Topic YOUR VOTE COUNTED...

[Matthew Bound Still Lurks]

There's none so blind as those who choose not to see . This isn't about a general election although if the out win thens thats a distinct possibility but that is a side issue .It's about the way this country is being ruled by an unelected non accountable state , which the EU it has become , with it's own flag ,monetary system anthem , parliament , very soon it's own armed forces ,with ongoing negations of TTIP between the good old USA which will turn the NHS as a private enterprise with all of which you and I have no say .a dictator state with no elections and positions of power being allocated within without fear of comment .
Good luck with that .I'd rather take my chance with the buffoons we've got at least you can vote them out .

 

[Tobes]

There's none so blind as those who choose not to see . This isn't about a general election although if the out win thens thats a distinct possibility but that is a side issue .It's about the way this country is being ruled by an unelected non accountable state , which the EU it has become , with it's own flag ,monetary system anthem , parliament , very soon it's own armed forces ,with ongoing negations of TTIP between the good old USA which will turn the NHS as a private enterprise with all of which you and I have no say .a dictator state with no elections and positions of power being allocated within without fear of comment .
Good luck with that .I'd rather take my chance with the buffoons we've got at least you can vote them out .

No-one said it was.

A dictator state? ffs Makes your first sentence laughable

 

[Ivan Dobsky]

To the undecideds, I'd ram home the anti-democratic nature of the EU. Do 5 minutes of research and you'll vote out.

I'm not a fan of Gove at all and never have been but his point was valid - so called 'experts' are not always right, and that applies to both sides. As someone who is a retired lawyer I can tell you that an expert's opinion is often disputed directly by other experts. It's actually not a numbers game, it's the quality of the data and the arguments that count. All of these experts have made assumpitions about the economy, such as the Pound falling, interest rates rising and so on, and that leads to a theory based on 'If A happens then B could happen, and if B happens, C could happen. It's complete conjecture.

Then you have vested interests that cannot be ignored - the IFS having a chunk of their funding from the EU - they may lose staff if we Brexit. Mark Carney made his name at Goldman Sachs and still has high profile friends there. They are one of the biggest contributors to the In campaign. It stinks to high heaven. This is why he intervened to such an extent that he has breached his contract of employment and should be sacked.

Remember, these are the same experts that have failed on many occasions to predict anything. I remind you that the Treasury 'experts' were trusted so much by Osborne that he created the ONS because they "could not be trusted and allow Chancellor's to fiddle the figures". Now they are put forward as the height of economic acumen.

As for Faisal Islam, I thought he was equally obnoxious to both Cameron and Gove. It wasn't 'robust' a la Paxman, it was downright rude. In both interviews he didn't wait for an answer and the viewer simply couldn't hear the response at all. That's not interviewing. He was clearly out to make a name for himself rather than get answers and he's done that. Cameron came off worse and was unable to do what Gove did brilliantly, and as a former advocate I can tell you this takes skill:

http://www.express.co.uk/news/politics/676719/Sky-News-debate-Michael-Gove-Faisal-Islam

You're quoting the Daily Express for an impartial view on Gove's performance? The same Express owned by Desmond, who did a deal worth £100'sm with Johnson as his last act of Mayor of London?

 

[Ivan Dobsky]

Btw, as to this 'democratic deficit' argument. Is it the contention that we can be outvoted in the EU over law making? That the majority of the people who come from an entity should have a government and Executive that reflects their persuasion?

Just how many voters in Scotland voted for the Tory-led and totally Tory governments of 2010 and 2015? So basically we're telling the Scots to have another independence referendum?

 

[Tobes]

Btw, as to this 'democratic deficit' argument. Is it the contention that we can be outvoted in the EU over law making? That the majority of the people who come from an entity should have a government and Executive that reflects their persuasion?

Just how many voters in Scotland voted for the Tory-led and totally Tory governments of 2010 and 2015? So basically we're telling the Scots to have another independence referendum?

Not to mention the fact that the Tories gained a majority Govt based on 36.9% of the UK populous voting for them

Or the fact that they gained 6.5% more of the vote than Labour but 42% more seats....

Democracy at it's finest.

 

[DirtyFrank]

That's what aboutery guys.

Scotland got tone vote on the following:

Change of voting system in GE...answer no (although as I say that is there a breakdown of figures of that vote anywhere?)

Whether to remain in the UK..again voted yes.

You can't use a democratic tool, vote to keep the status quo and then whinge about the status quo....

The same with this referendum...vote In and we are in..accepting the system for what it is and what our influence over the system is.

Except I still think unless the vote is 70+ out, this parliament will fudge leaving until 2020 and we will see the same campaign rehashed in a general election...

 

[moreinjuredthanowen]

I'm amazed the word veto has not come up yet.

I'm AMAZED.. UTTERLY AMAZED that nobody is talking about the actual content of the deal Cameron brought back as a basis of in v out debate.

http://ukandeu.ac.uk/explainers/britains-new-deal-with-europe-explained-by-eu-law-expert/

Has nobody looked at it....

excaple... concerns over der commissars rule us like demigods... the right to veto anything the EU should not be making laws on.. if a majority of EU member parliments vote this way... in other words.. UK needs ot build influence and blocks in the 27 member union not jump ship.

on the other side the wishy washy nature of the deal done on protecting banking rights was weak. This proves london is a prime target of Frankfurt IMO. this is why i say if we jump ship the germans will go all out to break london as a major stock market hub in europe... nothing perosnal just business... we will have lost all influence and vacated the field to them.

 

[DirtyFrank]

I'm amazed the word veto has not come up yet.

I'm AMAZED.. UTTERLY AMAZED that nobody is talking about the actual content of the deal Cameron brought back as a basis of in v out debate.

http://ukandeu.ac.uk/explainers/britains-new-deal-with-europe-explained-by-eu-law-expert/

Has nobody looked at it....

excaple... concerns over der commissars rule us like demigods... the right to veto anything the EU should not be making laws on.. if a majority of EU member parliments vote this way... in other words.. UK needs ot build influence and blocks in the 27 member union not jump ship.

on the other side the wishy washy nature of the deal done on protecting banking rights was weak. This proves london is a prime target of Frankfurt IMO. this is why i say if we jump ship the germans will go all out to break london as a major stock market hub in europe... nothing perosnal just business... we will have lost all influence and vacated the field to them.

So a leap in the dark? ...lol...hoping we can create a voting bloc that we haven't done in 30 years..

Hoping that by staying in they won't continue to target our Finance hub anyway?

 

[moreinjuredthanowen]

That's what aboutery guys.

Scotland got tone vote on the following:

Change of voting system in GE...answer no (although as I say that is there a breakdown of figures of that vote anywhere?)

Whether to remain in the UK..again voted yes.

You can't use a democratic tool, vote to keep the status quo and then whinge about the status quo....

The same with this referendum...vote In and we are in..accepting the system for what it is and what our influence over the system is.

Except I still think unless the vote is 70+ out, this parliament will fudge leaving until 2020 and we will see the same campaign rehashed in a general election...

we are actually voting to remain in with new deal.. not remain in as it was...

what do you think of camerons deal....

I would agree... the history of the EU and referendums is this could easily end up being put again to the people.

note: if this is a no i can see cameron going and conservatives having to go to people very quickly. a full blown recession (whatever conspiracy you want as the cause) and then we will see.

I still think Labour are currently unelectable and I'd not elect corbyn.

 

[moreinjuredthanowen]

So a leap in the dark? ...lol...hoping we can create a voting bloc that we haven't done in 30 years..

Hoping that by staying in they won't continue to target our Finance hub anyway?

so you are not too bothered to read the deal then?

 

[DirtyFrank]

so you are not too bothered to read the deal then?

No...I just responded to the points as explained in your post...were they not accurate?
Lol...look Mito...Here is my final take on this whole thing.

I hate what the EU has become, I liked what it originally was supposed to be.

I believe that the leading figures in the EU want to go in a direction unacceptable to me politically, socially and financially.

I believe our current politicians the ones that will be in power over the next decade are just not up to the task of influencing the EU in a way most beneficial to the UK's best interests. In fact I think the current govt only has the corporations and their own portfolios in mind. The opposition are non existent.

However.

I come from Northern Ireland. We get more money from the EU because of our reliance on Agriculture and Fishing.

We have a very high % of the rest of the workforce working in public rather than private organisations, many who's jobs are directly responsible for oversight and management of EU funding.

We are the only part of the UK with a land border with what would be the EU. Impossible to Trump wall it so in effect the border would be at the ferries and airports into the mainland.

We have a peace process tied up in the idea of the EU that if removed raises ugly questions yet again over the Northern Ireland question.

You might get recession when "out" we might get bullets and bombs again


So despite my misgivings about the EU, despite my instinct that it's heading for an ugly collapse no matter what.

I'll be voting in on regional based reasons....

 

[moreinjuredthanowen]

No...I just responded to the points as explained in your post...were they not accurate?
Lol...look Mito...Here is my final take on this whole thing.

I hate what the EU has become, I liked what it originally was supposed to be.

I believe that the leading figures in the EU want to go in a direction unacceptable to me politically, socially and financially.

I believe our current politicians the ones that will be in power over the next decade are just not up to the task of influencing the EU in a way most beneficial to the UK's best interests. In fact I think the current govt only has the corporations and their own portfolios in mind. The opposition are non existent.

However.

I come from Northern Ireland. We get more money from the EU because of our reliance on Agriculture and Fishing.

We have a very high % of the rest of the workforce working in public rather than private organisations, many who's jobs are directly responsible for oversight and management of EU funding.

We are the only part of the UK with a land border with what would be the EU. Impossible to Trump wall it so in effect the border would be at the ferries and airports into the mainland.

We have a peace process tied up in the idea of the EU that if removed raises ugly questions yet again over the Northern Ireland question.

You might get recession when "out" we might get bullets and bombs again


So despite my misgivings about the EU, despite my instinct that it's heading for an ugly collapse no matter what.

I'll be voting in on regional based reasons....

good points.

How can we influence it to go back to what it was meant to be not what it is now? I don't like what it is now either. I thin kthe only way to change it is to be in not out. Germany will make it a german super state by the end.

Interesting point of view though on NI issues. Certainly not thought about that side.

 

[Matthew Bound Still Lurks]

No-one said it was.

A dictator state? ffs Makes your first sentence laughable

Crack on sunshine , I'd be interested to what your definition would be

 

[DirtyFrank]

good points.

How can we influence it to go back to what it was meant to be not what it is now? I don't like what it is now either. I thin kthe only way to change it is to be in not out. Germany will make it a german super state by the end.

Interesting point of view though on NI issues. Certainly not thought about that side.

Honestly...this is going to sound daft but I think the perfect result will be a an "out" vote of a small margin.

I think it will destroy the Tory party as it is. I actually believe exit would be stalled until the next election...I think the Tories will split, the outers merging with UKIP.

The current split in the labour party will continue..

This leaves the possibility of a more centrist party forming that can be voted for in reasonable conscience. At this point it's up to mainland (it won't be over here unfortunately) voters to direct that change in party make up..if they don't? They get what they deserve (like over here lol)

If (big if) that occurs then you can go back to the EU with an exit a push of a button away already in the pocket with ref result but with a new party not responsible for it, maybe even on a manifesto to REALLY negotiate this time but doing it with the idea we really really want to stay but not as it is.

It's a tall order and lots of ifs and buts...best chance of effecting change though..

 

[carlthejackal]

Honestly...this is going to sound daft but I think the perfect result will be a an "out" vote of a small margin.

I think it will destroy the Tory party as it is. I actually believe exit would be stalled until the next election...I think the Tories will split, the outers merging with UKIP.

The current split in the labour party will continue..

This leaves the possibility of a more centrist party forming that can be voted for in reasonable conscience. At this point it's up to mainland (it won't be over here unfortunately) voters to direct that change in party make up..if they don't? They get what they deserve (like over here lol)

If (big if) that occurs then you can go back to the EU with an exit a push of a button away already in the pocket with ref result but with a new party not responsible for it, maybe even on a manifesto to REALLY negotiate this time but doing it with the idea we really really want to stay but not as it is.

It's a tall order and lots of ifs and buts...best chance of effecting change though..

Good points.

What is galling to many is that this whole referendum was only brought about by the Tories being scared ****less of UKIP. They promised a referendum to people at relatively short notice on an issue which many people have agreed is extremely complex. Richard Dawkins said the issue is too complex and diifficult to put to a population to decide in a few weeks.

There are downsides, upsides, known unknowns, unknown unkowns (to paraphrase rumsfeld).

Corbyn is playing an interesting game. He is saying he supports Remain yet his endorsement is lukewarm. He provides as much ammunition to the Leave camp as to the Remain camp. If the Leave wins I wonder whether he'll secretly be rejoicing. But if that happens, his role should be looked at.

Cameron seems to be keen on Remaining but again his role leading up to the referendum will be scrutinised. He has no chance of surviving as PM if Leave wins.

Lots of papers are now saying that Westminster have the ultimate say and not the people (e.g the vote against capital punishment) and the decision has to be passed as legislation by MPs. As most MPs are Remain, we could have a situation when effectively they could stall any exiting process.

Interesting times ahead.

 

[HugoEkitikeN01]

Boris Johnson has entered into marriage of convenience with others he usually disagree with.

 

[moreinjuredthanowen]

I firmly believe Mr Corbyn and his communist ways was leave..

He is unelectable. if no vote comes I could see both labour and tories changing their leaders.

I cannot see a less polarised party emerging as a result it would be more radicalized. The nigel farage pm scenario may not be nuts

 

[HugoEkitikeN01]

Billions Of Pounds Leave UK Ahead Of EU Vote
Cash is leaving the UK economic system at the fastest rate since 2009, with £77bn flowing out of sterling assets in six months.

You must log in or register to see images

By Ed Conway, Economics Editor
Sky News has uncovered the first statistical evidence that investors are shifting billions of pounds out of British assets in light of the EU referendum.
Some £65bn either left the UK or was converted into other currencies in March and April - the fastest rate since the financial crisis in early 2009.
The figures, published by the Bank of England in its monthly register of banking statistics, represent the first evidence of capital flight from the UK - where money rapidly flows out of a country in response to concerns over economic instability.
They are consistent with the sharp falls in the pound over the period, which is regarded as a barometer of international fears about
http://news.sky.com/story/1708390/billions-of-pounds-leave-uk-ahead-of-eu-vote

 

[Ivan Dobsky]

That's what aboutery guys.

Scotland got tone vote on the following:

Change of voting system in GE...answer no (although as I say that is there a breakdown of figures of that vote anywhere?)

Whether to remain in the UK..again voted yes.

You can't use a democratic tool, vote to keep the status quo and then whinge about the status quo....

The same with this referendum...vote In and we are in..accepting the system for what it is and what our influence over the system is.

Except I still think unless the vote is 70+ out, this parliament will fudge leaving until 2020 and we will see the same campaign rehashed in a general election...

Wrong. The Nats haven't got a majority in Holyrood, but there'll be enough Labour to go with then for a declaration of UDI and/or their own plebiscite. That's democracy for you.

 

[Ivan Dobsky]

That's what aboutery guys.

Scotland got tone vote on the following:

Change of voting system in GE...answer no (although as I say that is there a breakdown of figures of that vote anywhere?)

Whether to remain in the UK..again voted yes.

You can't use a democratic tool, vote to keep the status quo and then whinge about the status quo....

The same with this referendum...vote In and we are in..accepting the system for what it is and what our influence over the system is.

Except I still think unless the vote is 70+ out, this parliament will fudge leaving until 2020 and we will see the same campaign rehashed in a general election...

So if they have another it will be a twotone vote? Sweet.

You must log in or register to see media