So do you think its safer to have people running the show who we could vote out or just people running the show he get put there? If staying is the panacea to all things, why would certain big businesses be advocating to leaving it? Diego has hit what the EU is becoming right on the head. It's been slow but they seem to be creating more and more power for themselves
Like many on here with kids and grandkids I want to vote for the best possible future for them as I can. I know what the financial impact will be if the country with vote to leave( the innies told me so), I also know that's a lie and an exaggeration(the outies told me so) But having made my own mind up on that due to doing a lot of reading on the subject(mainly on this thread.)I worry what future we're leaving for our kids and theirs regarding immigration, if as expected Turkey do get membership in however many years in the future along with a possible few other hopefuls where will the kids studying for skilled jobs get employment or get a career when more than enough already skilled people in their chosen trade or profession turn up before they graduate? I'm no spring chicken anymore and I'm not financially strapped so its not me I'm worried about, would you lads that have made some good/interesting and informative posts on the thread give me your view please.
you are entitled to your opinion. You must have some reasons thought for this view unless theres no logic behind it and you just felt that way
The country will survive either way, either as a state/province of Europe or a Sovereign Country. We will go through hard times no matter which way we go but one way we will be responsible for and will be able to use all means at our disposal to combat the hard times, the other way we will be in the hands of others who we have never heard of and answer to no one.
As I was driving tonight I was overtaken by a van that said "Immigration Enforcement" on the side. The Daily Mail was right. No wonder there are so many immigrants if we're forcing the buggers to come here.
It's happened for hundreds of years and will continue to do so regardless of the EU, we are a mongrel race and stronger for it
1. Democracy, we will be able to vote out party if we think they are not performing or they are corrupt rather than the commission being picked cause David Cameron wants so and so there and all the other heads of states 2. TTIP - This is being negotiated behind closed doors theres no copies anywhere, no actual notes and from what i gather is something very american with things like privatization of state assets, GM foods, suing of the state for policies that affect corporation profits. MITO things that we will get this irrespective if we are out or in. I'd like to think the british public will immediately reject it and have a mutiny against the tories ala the benefits reversal on reducing it for disabled people. 3. Immigration, i'm happy with immigration but not uncontrolled immigration whereby any old person can enter. Somebody we need sure, humanitarian reasons why not. invite everyone who wants to come in no we cannot do that. In a utopia everyone would get on and everyone is welcome and everyone has all the food housing luxuries they need. Unfortunately this is a dream. We can't invite everyone in and we don't have the infrastructure for it. This is before Turkey enters which i'm pretty certain will happen down the line. Cameron has promised to keep immigration down with over 330k net migrating in (which doesn't account for the NI applications deficit which gives a better indicator) but guess what, he can fall back on the freedom of movement and it's a very good excuse. He won't have that anymore More people means more pressure on housing, it's not a coincidence that ****holes in london that you could have got for a pittance are now costing a stupid amount of money. It's because theres been a lot of migration there. I'm not even going to go into class sizes, people using the NHS, benefits and stuff (in all honesty i'm not that knowledgeable on it all, to me this all makes logical sense). 4. EU corruption/beauracracy. We waste enough money on middle managements in civil services and MPs. Do we need to spend a whole load more on MEPs who have meetings in belgium but then have more meeting in strasbourg and get paid to travel to and from their respective countries. I heard people mention this but auditors aren't prepared to sign off on 100 billion pounds worth of EU spending. Sounds fishy to me http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/wor...more-than-100billion-of-its-own-spending.html 5. Giving money to causes like the EU. We give 150m to the EU every WEEK. they spend it on things like making other up and coming countries more prosperous (not a bad thing) or wasting it on beauracracy see above. 6. Trade deals with other countries. These deals are meant to help us grow. Do i think being part of the EU will get us a better deal. Possibly. Do i think they will get one? well not until all 28 countries will agree upon it. It's easier to agree with 1 of us that 28 of us who all want something different. The main reason for wanting to stay in for most people is for economic reasons. Maybe it's because i won't be in financial trouble so i can honestly appreciate why people will vote in if they are worried for their jobs but for the reasons above i'm a brexiter even if having more rules and regulations helps me as i work in IT and all these rules have to be implemented into systems
The problem with this referendum is that both camps can come up with rational reasons and arguments. No one is willing to admit to any weaknesses or negatives so that the public is getting confused and/or going with their prejudices or gut instinct without being provided with the facts. If for example, the Brexit camp could admit to some economic uncertainty, and even a minor (temporary?) recession as our market is reduced. But it is a price worth paying for more control of European immigration and more sovereignty (see below). The Remain camp should acknowledge that we are having to accept some European rules from bureaucrats and our immigration control is being hampered but these are prices worth paying for getting access to a bigger market on favourable terms as a member and being a member of a big club with free movement and lots of cooperation etc. On the loss of sovereignty, below is an interesting article in the Times by Malcolm Rifkind (a eurosceptic and ex Thatcherite Tory minister) ----------------- Are we giving away too much sovereignty to Brussels? No malcolm rifkind How many people are aware that Britain’s net contribution to the EU is a tiny 1.2 per cent of UK public expenditure. It is clear that if the European referendum is decided on jobs or on our standard of living Brexit will lose heavily. But there is one slogan that resonates with many. “Give us control of our country; give us back our sovereignty.” I have thought hard on that demand. If it is valid, there would be a case that the price of membership of the EU is too high, whatever the benefits. To come to a conclusion as to whether we are no longer an independent state should not be by indulging in rhetoric, but by looking at facts. The most important issue is declaring war. Who decides? It is obvious from the Falklands and Iraq that these decisions, for good or ill, were taken, as they still would be, by our own government. Sovereignty must also mean the sole right to tax. That was why our Civil War was fought in the 1640s. It is Westminster, not Brussels, that decides the taxes that we pay. Furthermore, it is the Bank of England, not Frankfurt, that decides interest rates and mortgage rates that determine our bills. The largest area of spending is social security, including pensions and welfare benefits. These are determined by our parliament not by Europe. Likewise, it is we who decide spending on the NHS, schools and colleges, housing, police forces prisons and roads and transport. How many people are aware, in fact, that Britain’s net contribution to the EU is a tiny 1.2 per cent of UK public expenditure? We share sovereignty in some areas but it suits us overwhelmingly Of course, the EU does have supranational powers in certain areas with majority voting. The European Court of Justice does have the last word but that is limited to disputes as to the meaning of the EU treaties or regulations. A very high proportion of these supranational decisions, where the UK does not have a veto, are limited to agriculture and the single market. The National Farmers’ Union has announced that a large majority of farmers want Britain to remain in the EU. as regards the single market, its creation has been, perhaps, Britain’s greatest achievement since we joined the EU. I was Margaret Thatcher’s Europe minister in the 1980s. Mrs Thatcher wanted a single market and she accepted decisions would need to be taken by a majority to ensure that countries hostile to free trade could not obstruct it. The single market has always required free movement for all EU citizens including our own. If many choose to come to the UK that is because we are one of Europe’s most successful economies. As we have one of the lowest levels of unemployment in the EU it can hardly be argued that we have suffered greatly from their presence. The most ridiculous part of the Brexit case is that Britain should not just leave the EU but also abandon the single market. There was not a hint, until recently, that this was what Brexit would demand. For years they argued that we could still have access to the single market, like Norway or Switzerland. Now that has been cast aside because they have discovered that Norway and Switzerland accept free movement of labour as a price of access. Brexit now gives us their vision of “a Europe with free trade from Iceland to Russia”. When challenged as to which European countries to copy that are not either in the EU or accept its rules, they have offered Albania as a model for the UK. If Brexit supporters think that Albania is the right model for Britain they must have been disappointed when the Albanian prime minister declared that his country wanted to join the EU. If staying in the EU meant we had to join the euro I would be voting to leave. A single currency is, for me, a major derogation of sovereignty. The prime minister’s achievement has been to ensure that “ever closer union” does not require the UK to accept any further integration that is not in our interests. We do share sovereignty in some areas but it suits us overwhelmingly to do so. The single market, including the free movement of labour, is one of the reasons for our status as the world’s fifth largest economy. It is not surprising that young Britons overwhelmingly wish us to remain in the EU. We will be damaging their future if we vote to leave. -------------------------- please log in to view this image
