Off Topic The politics thread

[Saf]

Labour split and there's talk of a new party emerging. This has just set the Labour party back, when all they needed to do was turn up at the next election. Working class folk are unable to recognise what it has turned into it. Not many locals can support the likes of Jeremy Corbyn and Diane Abbot. I hope for their sake that Corbyn stops clinging to power and walks away.

This could possibly mean at least another decade of Tory rule.

 

[MrRAWhite]

Totally disagree.. Under the leadership of Corbyn, and with Abbott and McDonell as his top front benchers, Labour would never win an election no matter how awful this government is.. Hopefully, this is the beginnings of a centre left party that can actually challenge for government..

 

[Brian Storm]

There's not a party remotely fit to govern. The country is crisis, in a total ****ing mess at the hands of an unfit party, and no party is fit enough to fix it.

Change can't be a bad thing. Something has to emerge to get us out of this mess. Whether a break away party from Labour will be the one to sort us remains to be seen but we need something and the sooner the better. So I welcome change and the emergence of new parties personally.

Sent from my Moto G (5) using Tapatalk

 

[Sidthemackem]

Both Tories and Labour are hopelessly split on a number of issues, Brexit being the obvious one, but there are others. It remains to be seen if a split of only 7 Labour MPs will come to anything and I rather doubt it myself. That said, anything that changes the bad-government-worse-opposition status quo can only help.

 

[gelders pie]

Theoretically, if more /enough labour mps quit the party , could May be given back her majority. ?
Those who quit should have their seat removed and be banned from standing as an MP ever again .

 

[Gordon Armstrong]

Then, when they return (if they're not banned, of course) after they get rid of the tramp who leads them, will their votes become valid again

 

[polyphemus]

Am I the only one who gets frustrated at the sheer stupidity and arrogance of the majority of MP's?

In Sunderland, where a large majority of the voters want to leave Europe, we have MP's who vote the other way and want a 'peoples vote'. What else BUT a peoples vote was the referendum.
But THEY KNOW BEST, and they will continue to ignore us peasants, the ones they are supposed to be representing.

Now seven(?) have resigned to form a new party.
They are basically nonentities.
It's been tried in the relatively recent past and by 'Front Line, top of the tree' people, and it failed for them.
What chance this lot?
Snowballs in Hell comes to mind.

I sympathise with these people who are alarmed at the way their party has developed, but leaving is not the answer.
The extremists have to be challenged from the inside if they want a socialist Government.
Otherwise, leave it to The Electorate to do it at The Polls.

None of these now in charge of Labour seem to understand that most of the population are middle of the road, politicly.
We don't like extremists, right or left.
The only thing that will get the majority to vote for one extreme is if they fear the other extreme even more.
That's how Maggie kept winning elections, Fear of irresponsible Unions.

And just in case anyone wonders how we got to this stage I can only assume that it was when MP's were stopped from appointing Party Leaders and the vote went down to local party activists and Unions, and while
this may be an over simplification I'm convinced that it ensures that Labour are just about unelectable.

'A plague on both your houses'.

 

[Deletion Requested1]

One of the "dinner party seven" who quit because of anti-semitism;

"One of the seven MPs who resigned from the Labour Party on Monday has been criticised over a comment about skin colour.

Angela Smith appeared on BBC Two's Politics Live programme and in a discussion about race, appeared to say: "It's not just about being black or a funny tinge."

The MP has since posted a video on Twitter apologising for the comment, adding: "I am very upset that I misspoke so badly."

 

[MrRAWhite]

Am I the only one who gets frustrated at the sheer stupidity and arrogance of the majority of MP's?

In Sunderland, where a large majority of the voters want to leave Europe, we have MP's who vote the other way and want a 'peoples vote'. What else BUT a peoples vote was the referendum.
But THEY KNOW BEST, and they will continue to ignore us peasants, the ones they are supposed to be representing.

Now seven(?) have resigned to form a new party.
They are basically nonentities.
It's been tried in the relatively recent past and by 'Front Line, top of the tree' people, and it failed for them.
What chance this lot?
Snowballs in Hell comes to mind.

I sympathise with these people who are alarmed at the way their party has developed, but leaving is not the answer.
The extremists have to be challenged from the inside if they want a socialist Government.
Otherwise, leave it to The Electorate to do it at The Polls.

None of these now in charge of Labour seem to understand that most of the population are middle of the road, politicly.
We don't like extremists, right or left.
The only thing that will get the majority to vote for one extreme is if they fear the other extreme even more.
That's how Maggie kept winning elections, Fear of irresponsible Unions.

And just in case anyone wonders how we got to this stage I can only assume that it was when MP's were stopped from appointing Party Leaders and the vote went down to local party activists and Unions, and while
this may be an over simplification I'm convinced that it ensures that Labour are just about unelectable.

'A plague on both your houses'.

When you see car manufactures in the UK stopping investment and leaving , and quoting that Brexit is a major factor, then perhaps they do know best and doing their duty in trying to save thousands of jobs..

 

[polyphemus]

When you see car manufactures in the UK stopping investment and leaving , and quoting that Brexit is a major factor, then perhaps they do know best and doing their duty in trying to save thousands of jobs..

I listened to an interesting interview on TV with a 'Motor Industry Analyst' about this.

According to him there are many reasons for this and our leaving The EU is not likely to be the main one.
It seems that a couple of years ago The EU agreed a Free Trade agreement with Japan.
This means that the original logic to have Japanese good manufactured in UK, tax free entry into Europe, or even manufacturing in The EU, no longer exists.
Quoting Brexit as the reason is simply making use of a good PR opportunity by the Car Manufacturer in this case.

If by any chance we got a similar deal with The EU as they gave to Japan, before the factory is due to close would that reverse their decision.
It's not cast in stone but the general opinion on that seems to be no because Japan also needs jobs and they have no need to export them anymore.

However it's fair to point out that Nissan said before The Referendum that this was a possibility.
It didn't seem to change many minds locally .

It's a complicated old world it seems.

 

[haslam]

Theoretically, if more /enough labour mps quit the party , could May be given back her majority. ?
Those who quit should have their seat removed and be banned from standing as an MP ever again .

Strongly disagree mate.

They are still MP's they just aren't affiliated to that party any more. Personally I don't vote for parties anyway, I vote for the actual individuals who are standing in my area - I realise I'm in the minority on that but find it baffling other people do differently. I generally lean towards Labour but didn't vote for "them" for 2-3 elections in a row for various reasons, one because the Lib Dem option was someone from the local area who did actual work in the locality (whilst the others were not) and the other times were because the Labour candidate was a parachute candidate (someone who they wanted as an MP in Whitehall so they put up to stand in a safe Labour seat despite the person have no connection to the area or awareness of local issues).

I think there's far too much emphasis on party politics in this country and it's because the media dumb down issues and surmise ideologies as left or right wing. Eveyone can see that the Labour of the 80's was vastly different to the Labour of the 00's and has changed again. Conservatives have morphed but not to the same level and god only knows what the Lib Dems are any more; MP's need to be allowed to say "this isn't the party I signed up for" and move, especially if they think it no longer represents their constituents.

ps. My local MP is Frank Fields and I voted for him and will do again despite him quitting Labour. He's not perfect but I'd put him in the "better than most" category.

 

[polyphemus]

When you see car manufactures in the UK stopping investment and leaving , and quoting that Brexit is a major factor, then perhaps they do know best and doing their duty in trying to save thousands of jobs..

Now this new bit has really surprised me.

It seems that the 'quote' about leaving because of Brexit was FAKE NEWS

Far from hiding behind Brexit, Honda have stated, according to The BBC, that Brexit had nothing to do with the decision.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-47287386

Of course we don't know what Toyota or Nissan will do but I SUSPECT that as the Washington plant is probably the most efficient of all the Nissan/Renault group operations then it will have some sort of a future.

(Sorry but for some reason I can not copy this. If you are interested, use the link)

 

[haslam]

Now this new bit has really surprised me.

It seems that the 'quote' about leaving because of Brexit was FAKE NEWS

Far from hiding behind Brexit, Honda have stated, according to The BBC, that Brexit had nothing to do with the decision.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-47287386

Of course we don't know what Toyota or Nissan will do but I SUSPECT that as the Washington plant is probably the most efficient of all the Nissan/Renault group operations then it will have some sort of a future.

(Sorry but for some reason I can not copy this. If you are interested, use the link)

Honda made a point of saying it wasn't due to Brexit (and they've no reason to lie that I can think of), I thought Nissan put forward a number of things of which Brexit was one (but not a major one). Either way the suggestion was that it wasn't "because of Brexit" (and again I can't think of any reason for them to lie as it would have been a convenient excuse for them).

Agree with the bit in bold but would add that I suspect this is posturing to try and fleece the government in some way. They have form for this and will want post-Brexit deals going their way.

 

[gelders pie]

Strongly disagree mate.

They are still MP's they just aren't affiliated to that party any more. Personally I don't vote for parties anyway, I vote for the actual individuals who are standing in my area - I realise I'm in the minority on that but find it baffling other people do differently. I generally lean towards Labour but didn't vote for "them" for 2-3 elections in a row for various reasons, one because the Lib Dem option was someone from the local area who did actual work in the locality (whilst the others were not) and the other times were because the Labour candidate was a parachute candidate (someone who they wanted as an MP in Whitehall so they put up to stand in a safe Labour seat despite the person have no connection to the area or awareness of local issues).

I think there's far too much emphasis on party politics in this country and it's because the media dumb down issues and surmise ideologies as left or right wing. Eveyone can see that the Labour of the 80's was vastly different to the Labour of the 00's and has changed again. Conservatives have morphed but not to the same level and god only knows what the Lib Dems are any more; MP's need to be allowed to say "this isn't the party I signed up for" and move, especially if they think it no longer represents their constituents.

ps. My local MP is Frank Fields and I voted for him and will do again despite him quitting Labour. He's not perfect but I'd put him in the "better than most" category.

Good comment mate , it’s made me think a little deeper . ( love this site that a good discussion can help us see things from a different angle - very often the information people give on here is way more useful than what we get in the media ). My MP is Kevan Jones , hasn’t resigned , but if he had, I’m now thinking that I would vote for him personally , if (brexit and party politics aside) he showed that he had a genuine desire to improve the lot of North West Durham

 

[polyphemus]

Strongly disagree mate.

They are still MP's they just aren't affiliated to that party any more. Personally I don't vote for parties anyway, I vote for the actual individuals who are standing in my area - I realise I'm in the minority on that but find it baffling other people do differently. I generally lean towards Labour but didn't vote for "them" for 2-3 elections in a row for various reasons, one because the Lib Dem option was someone from the local area who did actual work in the locality (whilst the others were not) and the other times were because the Labour candidate was a parachute candidate (someone who they wanted as an MP in Whitehall so they put up to stand in a safe Labour seat despite the person have no connection to the area or awareness of local issues).

I think there's far too much emphasis on party politics in this country and it's because the media dumb down issues and surmise ideologies as left or right wing. Eveyone can see that the Labour of the 80's was vastly different to the Labour of the 00's and has changed again. Conservatives have morphed but not to the same level and god only knows what the Lib Dems are any more; MP's need to be allowed to say "this isn't the party I signed up for" and move, especially if they think it no longer represents their constituents.

ps. My local MP is Frank Fields and I voted for him and will do again despite him quitting Labour. He's not perfect but I'd put him in the "better than most" category.

I have a couple of strategies that I fall back on.

The first is similar to yours, so that when Chris Mullings, a Moderate Socialist was my candidate, I had no problem. He was one of the good guys in my opinion.
North of the River was the very left wing Bill Etherington, an MP who's main claim to fame was asking fewest questions and attending debates rather infrequently.
But both seats were safe Labour.

I believe that the current ladies who 'represent Sunderland', if not the views of the majority of the residents of Sunderland were all parachuted in to get the number of Labour Lady members increased.

So, I'm now left with strategy number two.
This involves voting for the party, whoever they are who MIGHT beat the sitting Member.
Obviously there is little chance of this happening in Sunderland, but 'hope costs nowt'.

If our MP's thought that there was a chance in hell of getting the old heave ho, they just MIGHT pay a little more attention to the views of their constituents.

 

[Expat-Cat]

[QUOTE="haslam, post: 12579462, member: 1014811" Either way the suggestion was that it wasn't "because of Brexit" (and again I can't think of any reason for them to lie as it would have been a convenient excuse for them).[/QUOTE]

Many reasons for them being careful with what they say. They will still be here for a few years and don't want to rock any boats, and getting dragged into "local" politics is not something they will want.
Read the Honda VP's statement carefully, "the company had to "look very closely" at where it was putting its investment".
Sure, many other reasons led them to look at reducing capacity and locations, but building cars for export in a location with, at best, uncertain export rules and costs will have made the decision very obvious. Japan has a trade deal with the EU, so no reason to stay. However there is one other thing outside of the Brexit situation; the EU does not have a trade deal with the USA, and negotiations have been running for 6 years! It may be that the US is more likely to join the ASIA-PAC TPP in the immediate future, so Japan is a better place to build cars.

 

[Saf]

So it's looking like this new split party is just an anti-brexit party.

 

[polyphemus]

So it's looking like this new split party is just an anti-brexit party.

It's starting to look that way.

I find it just a bit frightening when professional politicians fail to understand the concept of a referendum

I thought originally that it was just the mad woman up in Scotland who couldn't grasp the concept but it seems that the idea that 'if you lose, you keep doing it over and over again till you win', is alive and kicking in England too.

There is a precedent for this, started you will not be surprised to know by The EU.
A few years ago The EU wanted a change in their constitution (if that's the right way to put it), and most of the countries passed it, but it needed all members to agree.
Some countries are required to have a Referendum in such circumstances and Eire was one of them.

The Irish said NO.
So the EU offered a bribe with some other legislation, (but no change to the original), and continued to do so till Ireland said YES.

 

[Saf]

It's starting to look that way.

I find it just a bit frightening when professional politicians fail to understand the concept of a referendum

I thought originally that it was just the mad woman up in Scotland who couldn't grasp the concept but it seems that the idea that 'if you lose, you keep doing it over and over again till you win', is alive and kicking in England too.

There is a precedent for this, started you will not be surprised to know by The EU.
A few years ago The EU wanted a change in their constitution (if that's the right way to put it), and most of the countries passed it, but it needed all members to agree.
Some countries are required to have a Referendum in such circumstances and Eire was one of them.

The Irish said NO.
So the EU offered a bribe with some other legislation, (but no change to the original), and continued to do so till Ireland said YES.

Ireland, Denmark and the Dutch, I believe have all fallen to the pressure from Brussels.

We are seeing clearly now that politicians are in it for themselves. 650 MP's serving their own wishes and not fully behind implementing what 17.4 million of us, voted for.

I fear what will happen if Brexit were to be overturned...

 

[The Norton Cat]

It's starting to look that way.

I find it just a bit frightening when professional politicians fail to understand the concept of a referendum

I thought originally that it was just the mad woman up in Scotland who couldn't grasp the concept but it seems that the idea that 'if you lose, you keep doing it over and over again till you win', is alive and kicking in England too.

There is a precedent for this, started you will not be surprised to know by The EU.
A few years ago The EU wanted a change in their constitution (if that's the right way to put it), and most of the countries passed it, but it needed all members to agree.
Some countries are required to have a Referendum in such circumstances and Eire was one of them.

The Irish said NO.
So the EU offered a bribe with some other legislation, (but no change to the original), and continued to do so till Ireland said YES.

But many people complain that MPs are only in it for self advancement. Yet, if these MPs have broken away from their respective parties because they want to set up an anti-Brexit party, surely they are doing so because they feel strongly, like many people do, that Brexit is a danger to this country. It would be easier for them, and less detrimental to their careers and bank balances, to stay put and do what their colleagues tell them. They are making a stand for something that they believe in, and whether you agree with them or not, that is the direct opposite to the accusations that are usually flung at politicians.