Off Topic The politics thread

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polyphemus said:
As far as I'm aware there are no constitutional laws about such things as Referenda, no doubt because they are such a rarity.


The Referendum that took us into Europe in the first place was considered to be Mandatory.
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Take a look at https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Referendums_in_the_United_Kingdom
Then "be aware".

The referendum in 1975 occurred 2 years after joining the EC, it was also a "stay/leave" vote. At that time the full implications of membership were understood, and leaving would have been less of a "leap in the dark" than now as it was a short while since the previous situation and the setup was clearer. So the vote was well defined with clear consequences, unlike the present where staying is well defined but the leaving is just a chaotic mess. And it WAS NOT mandatory.

I suspect that those MPs wanting to delay or amend the current action are fully aware that there is a small majority in favour of "leave", but are also aware that an even greater majority would be angry and upset with any governing body that just drove off a cliff. Either they are highly principled and honest, or "self serving" in that they feel the potential damage of the fall-out is a greater blow to their career then that of delaying or re-negotiating. Same effect either way.
 
If I understand the points being made, (said he trying to fight a losing battle), Referenda are at best, merely advisory, as far as Parliament and the MP's are concerned.

Which brings me to the crux of my argument, (still fighting you'll notice),--

What makes MP's think they know best.
This returns to the bit about whether MP's are there to reflect the views of their constituents
OR to vote the way THEY believe that their constituents should think, (OK, in the best interests of their constituents in their view).
How DO they most honestly represent the Voters?

To tell the voters that THEY know best is, to put it mildly, patronising in the extreme.

IF they believe that we, the general public, were unable to form a view then it says a lot about the educational system.
 
polyphemus said:
If I understand the points being made, (said he trying to fight a losing battle), Referenda are at best, merely advisory, as far as Parliament and the MP's are concerned.

Which brings me to the crux of my argument, (still fighting you'll notice),--

What makes MP's think they know best.
This returns to the bit about whether MP's are there to reflect the views of their constituents
OR to vote the way THEY believe that their constituents should think, (OK, in the best interests of their constituents in their view).
How DO they most honestly represent the Voters?

To tell the voters that THEY know best is, to put it mildly, patronising in the extreme.

IF they believe that we, the general public, were unable to form a view then it says a lot about the educational system.
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These are some good points and precisely why, in my opinion, the voter should vote for the candidate and not their party. If you can have faith in your MP and know that they will do their best for the communities that represent then it shouldn't matter what party they belong to and it shouldn't matter if they leave a particular party.
 
Fight on, we all learn from the discussion. :emoticon-0105-wink:

Yes technically advisory, but of course taken seriously (as I think we have all noticed)

What makes MPs think they know best? Conceit?, Ego? Or "a few thousand folks sent me here to do a job"? All of the above?

Try to get a look at that Peter Cook film. Why have paid, elected MPs managing the country when we can all do it better? Mainly because we don't have time to look at all the details (maybe we don't have the experience of all the situations) so we send someone to do it.

Do we believe them all the time? well... Do they always get it right? (no need to respond)

I don't think all MPs are being patronising (some might be). I suspect all see that there is a lot of dissatisfaction with the EU and take that firmly on-board. But equally maybe they think that people would prefer a more orderly exit. With a few exceptions, most "leavers" want some sort of arrangement with the EU and agree that the UK has to give something to get that in place. Even most 'remainers" would agree the EU could do with some reform.

MPs are not there to do what you want literally. They should be there to try to get as far as possible to where their voters want to be, following the principles also voted for (liberalism, free market, state ownership and whatever) and need to be free to work on the details, process/timelines and, where required, compromises.

So (in this case :emoticon-0100-smile) I don't wish to say you are wrong, but just that things are not quite as clear cut and MPs need to be able to try to do their job. Then vote them out!
 
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The referendum was advisory. Nothing to do with the constitution generally - the act authorising it specifically said so, but we all knew the result would be acted upon and Parliament itself accepted this when it voted overwhelmingly in favour of authorising the government to trigger Article 50. Ergo, we should leave. Not because it's right or wrong, but because that was the decision.
 
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Sidthemackem said:
The referendum was advisory. Nothing to do with the constitution generally - the act authorising it specifically said so, but we all knew the result would be acted upon and Parliament itself accepted this when it voted overwhelmingly in favour of authorising the government to trigger Article 50. Ergo, we should leave. Not because it's right or wrong, but because that was the decision.
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2 argument here

1. Based on what we know now, is it the right decision and do we need a 2nd referendum ? (exit, no exit?)

2. Say we stick with the result, no 2nd referendum, fine, but it needs to be done properly. Jumping off the cliff with no deal on the 29th March ? It going to be absolute chaos. There needs to be a decision that's best for the UK. Is that to delay so we can plan for a no deal exit properly? A referendum for exit no deal vs deal ? A delay so negotiate a new deal? Or just go ahead and jump off the cliff and see what happens?
 
My opinion?

The same people who make all the other decisions without need for a referendum? After all, we're not a direct democracy.

Or, we need to have an independent board lay out all the facts as they stand now, and expert opinions (what's the point of having experts if we don't listen to them?) etc, then have a another referendum based on some actual facts? Maybe with 3 choices, no deal, deal that may has negotiated or remain ?
 
No, Dan. No more votes with remain on the table. That has already been on the voting card and came out on the losing side.

I feel like it's just constant bleating from remainers using anything as an excuse to hold another referendum. We had the vote and we need to implement the vote. Both sides told porkies, I think we knew that and I don't assume that people weren't clever enough to make their own minds up, separating the bull **** from the facts. Both sides tell porkies at every general election, which we accept and get on with.

The EU have form for bullying countries into submission if they don't see votes going their way. Just ask Ireland and Holland. We can't allow them to do that to us.
 
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The EU, or the bureaucrats that actually run The Eu, don't want us to leave.
Too many other countries, (or their voters at least), are also unhappy with the organisation and are agitating to get out..
IF we were to be allowed to go with a good deal, then the floodgate might just start to leak a little.

Of course if we just leave with a 'Hard Exit', then everyone suffers.
At that stage politicians from all quarters will be hell bent on putting a deal in place.
The Irish are going to hate the Border Posts, BMW and Merc are going to wet themselves and the Spanish Market Gardeners will be rioting with lots of rotten fruit to throw.

And if by chance you might have perceived some irritation on my part at the patronising approach of some of our politicians, this is nothing compared to my reaction to the arrogance of Europe's Bureaucratic Elite.

I want out.
I had lots of reasons to come to this decision and I resent being told that I am too ignorant to know what I was doing. I knew that there would be a price to pay in the short term at least.
And I wasn't alone.
WE won.

And now the losers are trying to cheat me/us out of it.
 
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polyphemus said:
The EU, or the bureaucrats that actually run The Eu, don't want us to leave.
Too many other countries, (or their voters at least), are also unhappy with the organisation and are agitating to get out..
IF we were to be allowed to go with a good deal, then the floodgate might just start to leak a little.

Of course if we just leave with a 'Hard Exit', then everyone suffers.
At that stage politicians from all quarters will be hell bent on putting a deal in place.
The Irish are going to hate the Border Posts, BMW and Merc are going to wet themselves and the Spanish Market Gardeners will be rioting with lots of rotten fruit to throw.

And if by chance you might have perceived some irritation on my part at the patronising approach of some of our politicians, this is nothing compared to my reaction to the arrogance of Europe's Bureaucratic Elite.

I want out.
I had lots of reasons to come to this decision and I resent being told that I am too ignorant to know what I was doing. I knew that there would be a price to pay in the short term at least.
And I wasn't alone.
WE won.

And now the losers are trying to cheat me/us out of it.
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But what if it's bad for the country? What if its economically detrimental?
 
Sidthemackem said:
It ("if...") is a Spartan quote from 2 1/2 thousand years ago. No-one has ever answered it. Who's to say that Brexit and freedom from the EU might not lead to an economic revival?
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I'm aware of the Spartans' response to Phillip of Macedon, but in this case there should be an answer. What are we all going to do if this massive leap in to the unknown doesn't work? Like you say, who's to say that Brexit might not lead to economic revival, but that's the point isn't it? It's a massive risk. Is not having to abide by EU rules going to be worth it if it all goes wrong?
 
The Norton Cat said:
I'm aware of the Spartans' response to Phillip of Macedon, but in this case there should be an answer. What are we all going to do if this massive leap in to the unknown doesn't work? Like you say, who's to say that Brexit might not lead to economic revival, but that's the point isn't it? It's a massive risk. Is not having to abide by EU rules going to be worth it if it all goes wrong?
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Not in my humble opinion...
 
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CBD saffy said:
No, Dan. No more votes with remain on the table. That has already been on the voting card and came out on the losing side.

I feel like it's just constant bleating from remainers using anything as an excuse to hold another referendum. We had the vote and we need to implement the vote. Both sides told porkies, I think we knew that and I don't assume that people weren't clever enough to make their own minds up, separating the bull **** from the facts. Both sides tell porkies at every general election, which we accept and get on with.

The EU have form for bullying countries into submission if they don't see votes going their way. Just ask Ireland and Holland. We can't allow them to do that to us.
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Just suggesting options.

The entire thing is a giant **** up imo. Should have had a plan in place before we held the referendum. Should had the 3 options in referendum. Should have had a cross party group negotiating from the get go.

Of course some eu countries don't want us to go. They saw us as the only counter point to the German/French power in the EU. We were the only country that couldn't be bullied by them if we remained (the fact that our government didn't stand up to them is our problem not the EUs). Now we heading out, we are/will lose that power. The EU doesn't need us from an economic point of view, once the financial institutions move out of London (HQs). And we are already seeing the fall out of a potential no deal when you look at other industries. France and Germany are rubbing their hands at the thought of grabbing financial power from London.

The threat of us leaving should have been the stick while we were negotiating to change the EU from within, now that stick is broken and we can't use it any more. We've played all our cards now and the EU is more than willing to call our bluff.
 
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This thread was always going to get onto Brexit.

My opinion (again) for what it's worth is that I still don't understand how we had a referendum when we didn't know what both votes entailed.
 
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dansafcman said:
Just suggesting options.

The entire thing is a giant **** up imo. Should have had a plan in place before we held the referendum. Should had the 3 options in referendum. Should have had a cross party group negotiating from the get go.

Of course some eu countries don't want us to go. They saw us as the only counter point to the German/French power in the EU. We were the only country that couldn't be bullied by them if we remained (the fact that our government didn't stand up to them is our problem not the EUs). Now we heading out, we are/will lose that power. The EU doesn't need us from an economic point of view, once the financial institutions move out of London (HQs). And we are already seeing the fall out of a potential no deal when you look at other industries. France and Germany are rubbing their hands at the thought of grabbing financial power from London.

The threat of us leaving should have been the stick while we were negotiating to change the EU from within, now that stick is broken and we can't use it any more. We've played all our cards now and the EU is more than willing to call our bluff.
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Of course the EU needs us from a financial point of view. Its us, France and Germany that props up the EU. France and Germany's economies aren't exactly booming, at the moment.

We were threatening to leave the EU, but as in these negotiations they weren't giving us a damn thing. So I totally reject your comment about that stick being broken, as it was never fixed or made any difference. A no deal Brexit will hit the EU harder than it will hit us. Barnier is desperate for our 39 billion and the German car industries are already starting to put pressure on the EU telling them that they can't afford a no deal.

These whole negotiations have been led by MP's who had remaining in the EU at heart so the remain voters have a cheek trying to blame the leave vote for the **** storm that we have currently got ourselves into.

One huge reason of why we voted to leave is being overlooked and we could not have changed that from the inside. If the people get sick of Juncker and Tusk etc, what exactly can we do about it? Not a damn thing is the answer. Can we vote them out if we don't like them or the job that they're doing? Nope. That isn't democracy, that's unelected greedy bureaucrats.

Our fisherman also get their industry back and my industry might be able to flourish. At the moment, because of the EU regulations, I'm currently fighting every bastard day, to save my company. People only talk about how jobs MIGHT be lost when we leave the European Union. Nobody talks about the flip side.

With regards to the comments about people not knowing what leaving the European Union would look like, of course nobody knows what that looks like because it's never happened before. There's no form for leaving them.

I hate the European Union with a passion so when I see people trying to overturn the result and go against democracy, it really narks me.
 
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