Off Topic The Politics Thread

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Should the UK remain a part of the EU or leave?

  • Stay in

    Votes: 56 47.9%
  • Get out

    Votes: 61 52.1%

  • Total voters
    117
  • Poll closed .
Interesting that no Leave voters have responded to this. May be down to the time difference to where I am.

I think it depends on the nature of the final deal with the EU. In my opinion most of the differences (personally I don’t see them as benefits) will be intangible and emotional, around ‘taking back control’, sovereignty, independence. As this is undeniably important to some people, it shouldn’t be ignored. It’s possible that some of this ‘control’ can be used to increase the competitiveness of some sectors of the economy, but that can only be judged in the light of the final agreement and it will remain to be seen how this will benefit ordinary people. I think the promise of trade deals with lots of other countries is a bit of a red herring, we already have deals with 55 countries through the EU (excluding EU countries) which will have to be renegotiated. Again, if we do get trade deals I think we should judge them by benefits to ordinary people, not just shareholders. If a trade deal with the US leads to workers at company X getting a pay rise, it’s good.

The area of biggest change may be immigration. It’s falling already and will probably fall more, even if (in my view) the government lacks the tools and resources to effectively manage it (just look at non EU immigration). While people like me think this will actually damage our economy, that’s not the point as I think a large number of people voted leave on this issue and there are genuine and understandable concerns about levels of immigrants in some areas. So, Brexit might well deliver on this issue. Whether people who live in areas where there are already high numbers of immigrants in the population will actually see any difference is another question, that would depend on people voluntarily leaving which I guess would depend on how well the economy is doing, how well accepted they feel, and what they have to go back to.

Finally there is the cash, the alleged ‘Brexit dividend’. I am struggling to see how this actually exists, given the £ billions we expect to pay the EU, and the £ billions we will have to spend maintaining grants that come from the EU and replacing infrastructure and functions currently provided by the EU. If any government increases public spending or cuts taxes and directly attributes it to savings from leaving the EU, then we will know.

Obviously this is written from my, remain, perspective, but I have tried to be a little balanced and avoid inflammatory language. I suspect that it will be very difficult to disentangle the benefits and downsides of leaving from what happens due to the general global economy and our own, unrelated to EU government policy, and the same would be true if we stayed.

A good summary, albeit with an understandably remain slant, Stan. In addition, I think you need to look at the direction in which the EU is moving - that is, towards a federal block. Had we remained in the club and not joined the Euro, we would have found increasingly we were members on the outside of the Eurozone members that had become a club within a club and controlled the way the EU was run. This, despite the fact that we were the 2nd largest financial contributors. We would have been faced with the decision either to join the Euro to regain influence or be a rather toothless, negative force to the irritation of the remaining 27 member states.

I believe that our relationship with Europe will be improved when we have our independence and the EU is free (subject to a growing recalcitrance in some parts of the Continent) to go its own way.
 
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Copied from FB. Rather good, I think

I see you, Jeremy Hunt.

I see the cheeky little skip in your step, your smile wide and smugger than a cat drowning in cream. You’ve walked out of Number 10 with an expanded job title and the failing gastric band around your ego significantly loosened, so it’s off to Twitter to congratulate yourself you go. Of all the intolerable facets of your weapons-grade, cast-iron, copper-bottomed bell-end of a personality, the one that will always be so far beyond my comprehension that I have to look at it through the Hubble telescope has to be your capacity for self-delusion. Not once have I ever doubted that you honestly believe you’re doing a good and noble job. You’re the insane resus nurse who takes the pat on the back for saving the old man’s life despite the fact he was the mad prick who injected the air bubble into the IV line in the first place. You’re a preposterously deluded caricature of a man, a corporate ****heel juggling figures on a spreadsheet, unwilling and incapable of looking beyond them to see the human cost of your every ****bucket-useless decision.

It is beyond absurd that Theresa May is so utterly weak that you were able to talk her out of shuffling you out of your post. Quite how nobody has been able to wrench the staff from the palsied claws of the Skeksis Emperor at this point is baffling. Her night of the long knives was less of a cull than a series of hot stone massages for the bafflingly incompetent. She was like a hangman working with bungee cords, with the only borderline actual human in Justine Greening having the decency to at least step off the gallows after she’d undone her own noose. David Davis is still in, despite doing so little work preparing for Brexit that he’s singlehandedly responsible for the UK’s poor productivity rating. Then, under the buzz of the swarm of locusts heralding the return of Esther McAntichrist, Jeremy Hunt manages to talk himself into a promotion.


I don’t know which bubble Theresa May is living in, but it must be soundproof and there’s absolutely no way it’s tuned in to even the loudest and angriest thrumming of basic public opinion. Even the most adamant Conservative voter would be hard pressed to defend your managing of the NHS, which is probably best described as “casually pissing gasoline onto a raging bonfire.” Even if the grand Tory plan really is privatisation by the back door, you’ve been a total failure in achieving it subtly. So you’re either doing a terrible job of operating clandestinely or you’re doing a terrible job of… well, the actual job. You are an absolute ****ing fraud, Jeremy Hunt, and your complete lack of shame is as galling as it as abhorrent.

The NHS is not failing. It is being failed, on every level, by a government and a health minister that would rather see it die and harvest its organs for profit than supply it with the funding it so desperately needs. Even in the face of the most spectacular failures, with health professionals at every level calling you on your bullshit, we’re offered nothing but pathetic deflections. There can’t be a winter crisis because you’ve prepared for a crisis - so which is it? There can’t be a shortage of staff because you cherry-pick the figures so hamfistedly every Ralf Little and his dog can see right through them. Escalating privatisation is not your fault because Labour started it - so what, you’re allowed to kick the victim to death because you didn’t throw the first punch? Wouldn’t it be nice if we could actually admit that there’s a giant ****ing problem and that innocent people are dying when they shouldn’t have to, rather than just shouting “Trotsky!” and “but Venezuela!” when the Tories are called up on their bullshit?

You are a shameless, spineless, manipulative and wretched little creature, stretching those that have committed their lives to helping others in their most desperate moments to their absolute breaking point for nothing other than your own selfish ideological reasons. You’ll herald them as heroes whilst stripping them of the basic ability to function in their impossible roles, doffing your hypocrite’s cap to them as they leave the service in droves. Is the NHS going to struggle moving forwards in a society with an ever-ageing population? Of course it is. But its inefficiencies and failures now are not coincidental to years of Conservative policy. They are intrinsically connected to it, the safety nets stripped away, the incentives for new nurses and doctors burned or sold off to the lowest bidder.

And the most ridiculous lie of all? That starving the NHS of investment is a necessity, part of the burden of tightening our belts that we all have to bear. Never mind that a healthy workforce is a more productive one, that genuinely effective mental health provision would save the country money, or that expanding and improving both healthcare and research would actually create jobs. None of that matters, for no other reason than it doesn't fit the failed narrative of austerity.

You have no right to wear that NHS badge, Jeremy Hunt. You and your cronies are about as welcome on the frontline of a hospital as MRSA or a violent drunk in A&E. And there is not enough gauze in the underfunded stores of every hospital in the country to plug the yawning void in your chest where your sense of shame should be.

I see you, Jeremy Hunt. I ****ing see you.
Agree he has always been a slimy weasel. May was too weak to sack him. I think that spelt his name wrong as well it should be @unt.
 
Macron 5 May 0
he is already starting to P people in France. He is trying to break up the unions! He won't last long.
However I can see you think it's 5-0 <laugh> Would you trust May and Boris? All talk mate, they won't agree to anything. he won't be around long either.
https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2017/oct/04/emmanuel-macron-appeal-worn-thin-poll-ratings
he spends too much money on cosmetics.

When you think of it Merkel is weak and won't last. Macron won't get 2 terms. May although weak has managed to survive...You never know she might hold all the cards soon.
 
he is already starting to P people in France. He is trying to break up the unions! He won't last long.
However I can see you think it's 5-0 <laugh> Would you trust May and Boris? All talk mate, they won't agree to anything. he won't be around long either.
https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2017/oct/04/emmanuel-macron-appeal-worn-thin-poll-ratings


he spends too much money on cosmetics.

When you think of it Merkel is weak and won't last. Macron won't get 2 terms. May although weak has managed to survive...You never know she might hold all the cards soon.

So do I Tweed by Lethric
 
he is already starting to P people in France. He is trying to break up the unions! He won't last long.
However I can see you think it's 5-0 <laugh> Would you trust May and Boris? All talk mate, they won't agree to anything. he won't be around long either.
https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2017/oct/04/emmanuel-macron-appeal-worn-thin-poll-ratings
he spends too much money on cosmetics.

When you think of it Merkel is weak and won't last. Macron won't get 2 terms. May although weak has managed to survive...You never know she might hold all the cards soon.

They hate him to be fair
But he looks a lot stronger than our lot
 
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he is already starting to P people in France. He is trying to break up the unions! He won't last long.
However I can see you think it's 5-0 <laugh> Would you trust May and Boris? All talk mate, they won't agree to anything. he won't be around long either.
https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2017/oct/04/emmanuel-macron-appeal-worn-thin-poll-ratings
he spends too much money on cosmetics.

When you think of it Merkel is weak and won't last. Macron won't get 2 terms. May although weak has managed to survive...You never know she might hold all the cards soon.

<laugh>
 
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Macron only looks strong because May and Merkel are in weaker positions.

Weird that Macron's wife/ ex-teacher was 39 when he was just 14. At least we know Mac won't go after Theresa - she's too young for him
 
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Not sure if this is the right thread for this, but I found it really interesting. When capitalism works.

In 2012 90% of the beer production in the US was controlled by 2 companies - Anheuser -Busch and MillerCoors. Some surprising stuff amongst their brews - including Pilsner Urquell and Boddingtons. Employment in the industry had been falling, and stood at around 27,000.

Since then beer prices have gone up by 50% and beer consumption has gone down.

BUT - now 70,000 people are employed in brewing in the US and the number of breweries has gone up by 600%; the duopoly has been smashed (and other big brewers like Diageo - Guinness- and Heineken are losing market share too). All because of the boom in small craft breweries. ****ing great. Similar stuff happening in wine and spirits. Discerning drinkers driving the business - either a small number of them drinking an enormous amount, or lots enjoying a lot of sampling. Great stuff. I think we are seeing the same thing to a certain extent over here, and definitely with gin.

Shame I find a lot of the beers tasty but just too strong for a good night out.

Anyway, to get back to politics apparently Bernie Sanders and Jeremy Corbyn want to nationalise brewing, and reduce choice to Double Diamond, Watneys Red Barrel and an unbranded lager type beverage.*



*possibly.
 
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After Boris's idea for a bridge across the Channel was shot down by UK Shipping, who pointed out that 'building a huge concrete structure in the middle of the world’s busiest shipping lane might come with some challenges', he's come up with another idea for an alternative crossing....

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After Boris's idea for a bridge across the Channel was shot down by UK Shipping, who pointed out that 'building a huge concrete structure in the middle of the world’s busiest shipping lane might come with some challenges', he's come up with another idea for an alternative crossing....

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Many bridge designs can cater for large boats going under then. Seen it in Hong Kong.
My problem with a bridge is that when Russia invades Europe the French will surrender too quickly and they may hold the bridge to the UK? <doh>
 
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Actually now you come to mention it, bridges is a bit of a hobby of mine so please show your favorite images.
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