The FFP thread

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So the money 100% dictates where you come in the league?
Man U fans celebrating as we speak

Clearly not.

Point is it's been said many times that because of our January signings we should've finished higher. In reality we missed out to a team with almost twice our wage spending in Norwich and actually overachieved with the resources we had. We thought we could do better and now we're enjoying a nice relegation battle instead. Lessons learned I hope.
 
Clearly not.

Point is it's been said many times that because of our January signings we should've finished higher. In reality we missed out to a team with almost twice our wage spending in Norwich and actually overachieved with the resources we had. We thought we could do better and now we're enjoying a nice relegation battle instead. Lessons learned I hope.

9th placed budget, 7th placed finish, and there were those saying we underachieved.
 
I dont care whether we overachieved
Underachieved or what

But talking spreadsheets for position is depressing as ****

Made a damn silly joke on here now i get notifications
 
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We'll never have a top 6 budget so we might as well give up now then....

We underachieved in the second half of last season from the position we were in, due to the insistence of playing a woefully under performing GK and an inexperienced manager who was to cautious..... But it's been and gone. We've got this seasons underperformance to worry about now, which is worse
 
We'll never have a top 6 budget so we might as well give up now then....

We underachieved in the second half of last season from the position we were in, due to the insistence of playing a woefully under performing GK and an inexperienced manager who was to cautious..... But it's been and gone. We've got this seasons underperformance to worry about now, which is worse

No ones saying give up now, but it should be recognised when discussing expectations that others have a significant advantage and we'll have to both overachieve and hope some underachieve at the same time.

It would also be useful to consider when the annual accounts are released, leading to the inevitable panic, that maybe, just maybe we're actually less of a shambles than many of our direct competitors.
 
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No ones saying give up now, but it should be recognised when discussing expectations that others have a significant advantage and we'll have to both overachieve and hope some underachieve at the same time.

It would also be useful to consider when the annual accounts are released, leading to the inevitable panic, that maybe, just maybe we're actually less of a shambles than many of our direct competitors.

Our year end is 30 June - so nothing released from us for a while.
 
Not disagreeing on Zambrano but where do you see the risk?

The lack of intensity in the Ecuadorian league, the fact he’s not played a minute of professional football since early November, the transfer fee.

He looked tidy on the ball in the few games he did play for us but I just don’t see it as a good investment for a club of our stature. A club like Brighton or Bournemouth could take the risk of buying him and loaning him out to a European club (Brighton’s owner has a stake in Union Saint-Gilloise in Belgium but separate owners so both clubs can play in UEFA competitions should they qualify).

Just don’t think signing both Puerta and Zambrano is good allocation of resources. The club clearly didn’t envision sacking Walter as early as we did and we spent quite a bit of money in January.
 
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Is it? What's the fee?

Close to £5 million, I think.

I think it’s a moot point anyway. News outlets in Ecuador seem to think we’ve activated his buy clause.

EDIT: it could be lower than that. I’ve seen another source saying $3.5 million with a 30% sell-on clause which isn’t as bad as I initially thought.
 
Interesting to see how prevalent that is.


Blackburn 30th June

Bristol City 30th June

Burnley 31st July

Cardiff 31st May

Coventry 31st May

Derby 30th June

Hull City 30th June

Leeds 30th June

Luton 30th June

Middlesborough 30th June

Millwall 30th June

Norwich 30th June

Oxford 30th June

Portsmouth 30th June

Plymouth 30th June

Preston 30th June

QPR 31st May

Sheffield United 30th June

Sheffield Wednesday 31st July

Stoke 31st May

Sunderland 31st July

Swansea 31st July

Watford 30th June

West Brom 30th June

I need to get a life sometimes! :emoticon-0107-sweat
 
@yorkpud I know you included wages. That's my point. We're both counting wages. Our numbers are the same. If you can point out anywhere I've suggested we have 100m in amortised transfer fees to spend I'll hold my hand up. You've misinterpreted my opening post and run with it.

To make numbers easy let's say we have 52m in additional wages we expect to spend, so 1m a week, or 67k a week on average across 15 signings, and a further 35m in transfer fees amortised in 26/27, so again across 15 players on 3 yr deals on average that's on average a 7m fee per player. Now some will be on longer deals, some will cost a lot more, and some will be 1-2 year deals with no transfer fee.

Again, we're saying the same thing and I'm still not quite clear on how my calculations were wrong.
 
Because you are assuming the 100m transfer budget number is post amortisation, it isn't.

It also isn't exclusive of wages.

It's always gross transfer fees only.


Even, very simply, using your calculations, means we can spend almost £300m on gross transfer fee's, which is ridiculous.


£100m

/ £7m (your number example for THB)

= 14.2

14.2 x £20m (THB gross transfer fee)

= £285m.

This is not correct, the only clubs in the league with that sort of head room are the likes of Newcastle, Villa etc if they had absolute zero ongoing transfer liabilities, which they don't....
 
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Because you are assuming the 100m transfer budget number is post amortisation, it isn't.

It also isn't wages.

It's always gross transfer fees only.


Even, very simply, your calculations mean we can spend almost £300m on gross transfer fee's, which is ridiculous.


£100m

/ £7m (your number example for THB)

= 14.2

14.2 x £20m (THB gross transfer fee)

= £285m.

This is not correct, the only clubs in the league with that sort of head room are the likes of Newcastle, Villa etc if they had absolute zero ongoing transfer liabilities, which they don't....
You said we have 35m in amortised transfer fees to spend and about a 60m increase in wages expected. How is that any different?

"it's always gross transfer fees" according to who? What an idiotic way to express things if so when length of deal and other costs in said deal impact how much capacity we have to spend? "oh yeah we could spend 100m on transfers even if they're all 1 year deals for mercenaries on 100k a week"

You're arguing semantics at this point. Whether it's a 60m increase in wages and 40m of transfer amortisation or 50/50 or 40/60 it's still roughly a 100m increase in spend.

You've taken a post meant to indicate that a gross transfer fee is not as relevant to our headroom this coming year as some think and made it far more complicated than it needed to be.
 
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You said we have 35m in amortised transfer fees to spend and about a 60m increase in wages expected. How is that any different?

"it's always gross transfer fees" according to who? What an idiotic way to express things if so when length of deal and other costs in said deal impact how much capacity we have to spend? "oh yeah we could spend 100m on transfers even if they're all 1 year deals for mercenaries on 100k a week"

You're arguing semantics at this point. Whether it's a 60m increase in wages and 40m of transfer amortisation or 50/50 or 40/60 it's still roughly a 100m increase in spend.

You've taken a post meant to indicate that a gross transfer fee is not as relevant to our headroom this coming year as some think and made it far more complicated than it needed to be.

No I didn’t. Your assumption that we have £60m in increased wages to “spend” is also wrong.

A massive portion of that is already expended via contractural wage increases with the existing squad moving to the PL wages.

I’ve simply removed wages from individual calculations, as they are irrelevant in a case by case basis. It’s no coincidence that virtually every bottom third club in the PL has had a wage to turnover ratio in the same range for the last decade, as that’s how they calculate their wage bill budgets for the coming season.

You can just confidently assume that no matter how many people we sign and who we sign, the wage bill will be between £80m-£100m for next season.

What we are saying is entirely different. In your example, I’m saying we can afford to buy 5-6 THB before we cap out at SCR (£20m / 4 years on average x 110% to be inclusive of agent fees) which is a gross transfer spend of £80-£100m with the amount above £100 being eaten by agents. I.E coincidently what lines up with media reports and how they are always quoted…


Your calculations are stating we can sign 14 x £20m players, which is absolutely absurd for a club our size under SCR.

Leeds didn’t sign a single player above £20m last season. Sunderland signed 1.

My calcs could be adjusted to 6-7 £15m pound signings. Which seems spot on.

Your calcs state 16 x £15m signings are possible. Again, absurd.

Remembering, these are MAX amounts before owner fines are enforced for going above the 85% threshold.

It’s not “semantics” when your budget argument is DOUBLE the amount of mine.

It’s clear you just don’t grasp some of the rules for SCR yet or are unaware of the reporting amounts across most clubs being fairly consistent.

There is no possible scenario in which we can spend the amount you have stated. None.
 
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No I didn’t. Your assumption that we have £60m in increased wages to “spend” is also wrong.

A massive portion of that is already expended via contractural wage increases with the existing squad moving to the PL wages.

I’ve simply removed wages from individual calculations, as they are irrelevant in a case by case basis. It’s no coincidence that virtually every bottom third club in the PL has had a wage to turnover ratio in the same range for the last decade, as that’s how they calculate their wage bill budgets for the coming season.

You can just confidently assume that no matter how many people we sign and who we sign, the wage bill will be between £80m-£100m for next season.

What we are saying is entirely different. In your example, I’m saying we can afford to buy 5-6 THB before we cap out at SCR (£20m / 4 years on average x 110% to be inclusive of agent fees) which is a gross transfer spend of £80-£100m with the amount above £100 being eaten by agents. I.E confidently what lines up with media reports and how they are always quoted…


Your calculations are stating we can sign 14 x £20m players, which is absolutely absurd for a club our size under SCR.

Leeds didn’t sign a single player above £20m last season. Sunderland signed 1.

I didn't make the assumption, I used your numbers of our wage bill increasing to 90/100m. Of course some of that is expended on the existing squad. I referenced that previously.

As you say, our wage bill will be 80-100m next season. Last season our wage bill was about 32m. I presume that with not being able to spend transfer fees our wage bill has probably jumped quite a bit in 25/26 already which is why I was saying it may be around 48m for ease of working with a 52m increase. Of course a chunk of that will be on the existing squad. And a bunch of the existing squad will be sold/moved on as a consequence.

My calculations are doing nothing of the sort. I quite literally explained that we can sign 15 players on an average of 7m transfer fee presuming they are signed to a 3 year, 67k per week contract. How on earth did you extrapolate one example of THB as being my standard bearer for every signing?

To make numbers easy let's say we have 52m in additional wages we expect to spend, so 1m a week, or 67k a week on average across 15 signings, and a further 35m in transfer fees amortised in 26/27, so again across 15 players on 3 yr deals on average that's on average a 7m fee per player. Now some will be on longer deals, some will cost a lot more, and some will be 1-2 year deals with no transfer fee.

I'm more than happy to discuss this topic - but if you're going to launch into a discussion with an assertion that my calculations are wrong (which you've since modified to, my calculation was right but the starting number was wrong) at least cite the right numbers in my posts.