The FFP thread

[PLT]

Championship clubs vote on FFP rules for next season and what it means for Hull City's budget

City and their Championship peers have been locked in talks over recent months about changes to profit and sustainability rules

Championship clubs have voted to tweak rather than overhaul their profit and sustainability rules for next season, which Hull City will hope to be a part of, providing they can avoid relegation in the final 11 games.

EFL rivals have been running working groups on how best to go forward with Financial Fair Play amid concerns over disparities between the Premier League and the rest as well as those in the Championship with and without parachute payments, including the Tigers.

The Premier League has also been debating potential changes but, with high profile cases about breaches currently ongoing, they voted earlier this month to continue to operate in their current guise for at least one more year.

In basic terms, top-flight clubs are allowed to lose up to £105 million over any three-year rolling period – but that, for a large part, does not include spending on infrastructure, women’s teams and youth development. The same rules apply in the Championship but with an allowable loss which was raised from £39m to £41.5m last year to take into account inflation from the cost of living.

The top flight will run a squad cost ratio rule in the background for 2025/26 to see if that would be a feasible system. That would limit clubs to spending 85 per cent of revenue on players' wages, transfers and agent fees – but the Professional Footballers’ Association has expressed ‘significant concerns’ about the impact that could have on its members.

The EFL was widely expected to follow suit and hold fire on major shifts for now, and that was passed at a meeting last week, although there will be three minor adjustments.

There will be a change in how add-backs are audited for profit and sustainability calculations in terms of investment in youth development and women's teams.

All clubs will now have to submit a profit and sustainability calculation at the end of a second year in a three-year cycle. That was previously limited just to clubs who were under close watch. Clubs also voted to keep the temporary raise they agreed on last season, so the loss limit will stay at £41.5m over a three-year cycle. Championship clubs will continue to discuss more significant potential changes for 2026/27.

League One and League Two already operate using a squad cost ratio system – 60 per cent of turnover can be spent on wages and transfer fees in League One; 50 per cent in League Two – but with a crucial difference that owner investment is counted as revenue.

That has been slightly changed too for next season. The first £500,000 from owners in League One can still count 100 per cent towards player-related expenditure but it will only be 60 per cent beyond that. The idea is designed to encourage investment in non-first team matters.

Doesn't seem like any of the parties involved are getting anywhere close to a solution to the competitive disparity that FFP/PSR rules are causing. I suppose it's going to have to wait for the regulator to sort it once it's up and running.

 

[Chazz Rheinhold]

Doesn't seem like any of the parties involved are getting anywhere close to a solution to the competitive disparity that FFP/PSR rules are causing. I suppose it's going to have to wait for the regulator to sort it once it's up and running.

Man U appear to be in deep **** with it but will carry on regardless and will somehow bend the rules
From the grauniad
Winning the Europa League, quite apart from the emotional boost of a trophy and a night of celebration in Bilbao in May, would also bring qualification for next season’s Champions League and an injection of about £160m, desperately needed for a club that lost £113.2m last year, and which over the last three years has lost almost three times the £105m permitted under profitability and sustainability rules. Certain aspects of that can be discounted for PSR calculations which means United are unlikely to be in breach in this window, but the situation is far from healthy.

 

[willyfog]

What this means for City…we can have a 41.5 million loss over a 3-year period. If the figures are right we made the following losses;

22/23 - 5.2million
23/24 - 18.8million
24/25 - ??

If I’ve got the figures right our wages went from 130% of revenue to 140%. Meaning we lost 5.6million and 8.4million before players sales but with ‘Other costs’ (I imagine player purchase and agents fees) of 11.7million and 13.2million, we lost 20.6 and 26.5million (once amortisation of players 3.3 and 4.8million is taken into account).

Our overall position was then impacted by players sales. In 22/23 we benefited from 15.2million on players sales in comparison to 8.3million for 23/24.

With the Greaves and Philogene sales (depending on how long these are paid over) we should have a better profit on player sales this year.

If we estimated that Revenue is up slightly to £23million, wages/costs up to £45milion, £5million for amortisation and profit on players sales at around £15million (a lot of guesswork I know!) - the. We would sit at a loss of £12million.

Added to last year (total 30.8million). it would leave us with an acceptable loss of £10.7million for next year.

With very few players sales (big profit) we will have to be careful how we spend next season, both on wages and fees to stay within this. Our low revenue/high wages are making things hard to work with.

Fortunately, we have less reliance on loan players this season, so our player turnover should be much lower. Coupled with Sellés looking to trim squad numbers (lower wage costs) we could make a small number of smart signings and be much more competitive next season.

If Acun is wanting to make a marquee striker signing we may have to offload a couple.

 

[SydneyTiger14]

What this means for City…we can have a 41.5 million loss over a 3-year period. If the figures are right we made the following losses;

22/23 - 5.2million
23/24 - 18.8million
24/25 - ??

If I’ve got the figures right our wages went from 130% of revenue to 140%. Meaning we lost 5.6million and 8.4million before players sales but with ‘Other costs’ (I imagine player purchase and agents fees) of 11.7million and 13.2million, we lost 20.6 and 26.5million (once amortisation of players 3.3 and 4.8million is taken into account).

Our overall position was then impacted by players sales. In 22/23 we benefited from 15.2million on players sales in comparison to 8.3million for 23/24.

With the Greaves and Philogene sales (depending on how long these are paid over) we should have a better profit on player sales this year.

If we estimated that Revenue is up slightly to £23million, wages/costs up to £45milion, £5million for amortisation and profit on players sales at around £15million (a lot of guesswork I know!) - the. We would sit at a loss of £12million.

Added to last year (total 30.8million). it would leave us with an acceptable loss of £10.7million for next year.

With very few players sales (big profit) we will have to be careful how we spend next season, both on wages and fees to stay within this. Our low revenue/high wages are making things hard to work with.

Fortunately, we have less reliance on loan players this season, so our player turnover should be much lower. Coupled with Sellés looking to trim squad numbers (lower wage costs) we could make a small number of smart signings and be much more competitive next season.

If Acun is wanting to make a marquee striker signing we may have to offload a couple.

All sales are counted in this year, it doesn't matter how long they're paid over.

 

[willyfog]

All sales are counted in this year, it doesn't matter how long they're paid over.

I wasn’t aware of this

 

[willyfog]

I wasn’t aware of this

We can pretty much have ball park figures of revenue and costs but without ever getting full disclosure on the fees received/paid that’s were the guesswork comes in.

I think we’re in an ok position. However, if Acun wants to spend £8-10million on a striker we might need to balance the books.

 

[willyfog]

The guess at £15 million profit on player profits could well be £20million. Would make a big difference if we knew this figure.

 

[TwoWrights]

We can pretty much have ball park figures of revenue and costs but without ever getting full disclosure on the fees received/paid that’s were the guesswork comes in.

I think we’re in an ok position. However, if Acun wants to spend £8-10million on a striker we might need to balance the books.

Don't take too long thinking about us signing a £8-10m. striker.


The views expressed in my posts are not necessarily mine.

 

[HCAFCHangout]

The guess at £15 million profit on player profits could well be £20million. Would make a big difference if we knew this figure.

PSR calculations are basically impossible for us as fans to figure out as there’s nuances to what is and isn’t included from P&L sheets.

That being said the club’s motto has been pushing everything to the very edge and a self admittance we pushed it slightly over last year.

We may need one sale this summer just to keep things ticking but I hope that we aren’t in a situation like last having to sell prize assets like Greaves and Jaden last year.

 

[Kalman II]

PSR calculations are basically impossible for us as fans to figure out as there’s nuances to what is and isn’t included from P&L sheets.

That being said the club’s motto has been pushing everything to the very edge and a self admittance we pushed it slightly over last year.

We may need one sale this summer just to keep things ticking but I hope that we aren’t in a situation like last having to sell prize assets like Greaves and Jaden last year.

We just need to get rid of what we don’t need and be careful with our signings. Selling Racioppi, Palmer, Giles and perhaps even Ömür would go a long way to reducing our wage bill and recoup some money in the way of transfer fees. Only sign one of Puerta or Zambrano instead of both (my preference is obviously Puerta) etc. Need to prioritise a left-back in the summer.

 

[HCAFCHangout]

We just need to get rid of what we don’t need and be careful with our signings. Selling Racioppi, Palmer, Giles and perhaps even Ömür would go a long way to reducing our wage bill and recoup some money in the way of transfer fees. Only sign one of Puerta or Zambrano instead of both (my preference is obviously Puerta) etc. Need to prioritise a left-back in the summer.

Yeah can see the summer shopping list being something like this if we stay up

back up keeper
Left back
Striker
Gelhardt permanent
Puerta permanent

 

[willyfog]

We just need to get rid of what we don’t need and be careful with our signings. Selling Racioppi, Palmer, Giles and perhaps even Ömür would go a long way to reducing our wage bill and recoup some money in the way of transfer fees. Only sign one of Puerta or Zambrano instead of both (my preference is obviously Puerta) etc. Need to prioritise a left-back in the summer.

I think we should keep Zambrano as well. I’d like to see how he plays in a team that uses the midfield. I think he’ll be similar to Alzate and we could do with someone to share the burden in that role.

 

[Kalman II]

I think we should keep Zambrano as well. I’d like to see how he plays in a team that uses the midfield. I think he’ll be similar to Alzate and we could do with someone to share the burden in that role.

We do need another defensive midfielder but I don’t think we should spend the money on Zambrano. It’s a lot of money and it’s a risk. We’d be better off signing a player like Kyprianou or someone else of that ilk. Kyprianou would be ideal because he’s out-of-contract, still young and has plenty of experience of English football, albeit in League One. He’s also versatile and can play as a defensive mid, box-to-box or even as a centre-half (he plays there for Cyprus).

 

[PLT]

We do need another defensive midfielder but I don’t think we should spend the money on Zambrano. It’s a lot of money and it’s a risk. We’d be better off signing a player like Kyprianou or someone else of that ilk. Kyprianou would be ideal because he’s out-of-contract, still young and has plenty of experience of English football, albeit in League One. He’s also versatile and can play as a defensive mid, box-to-box or even as a centre-half (he plays there for Cyprus).

Is it? What's the fee?

 

[Gone For A Walk]

Don't take too long thinking about us signing a £8-10m. striker.


The views expressed in my posts are not necessarily mine.

and even if we did, you just know what would happen within his 1st few weeks with us ...

 

[HCAFCHangout]

We do need another defensive midfielder but I don’t think we should spend the money on Zambrano. It’s a lot of money and it’s a risk. We’d be better off signing a player like Kyprianou or someone else of that ilk. Kyprianou would be ideal because he’s out-of-contract, still young and has plenty of experience of English football, albeit in League One. He’s also versatile and can play as a defensive mid, box-to-box or even as a centre-half (he plays there for Cyprus).

Not disagreeing on Zambrano but where do you see the risk?

 

[PLT]

West Brom released their accounts today. This updated wage spending graph from Kieran Maguire shows in black and white what we were competing against last season:

You must log in or register to see images

You must log in or register to see media

Hopefully we can now put to bed any idea that we failed or underachieved by finishing behind West Brom and Norwich.

 

[Chazz Rheinhold]

West Brom released their accounts today. This updated wage spending graph from Kieran Maguire shows in black and white what we were competing against last season:

You must log in or register to see media

Hopefully we can now put to bed any idea that we failed or underachieved by finishing behind West Brom and Norwich.

So the money 100% dictates where you come in the league?
Man U fans celebrating as we speak

 

[bradymk2]

Is it? What's the fee?

Hes contracted to roma

 

[willyfog]

West Brom released their accounts today. This updated wage spending graph from Kieran Maguire shows in black and white what we were competing against last season:

You must log in or register to see images

You must log in or register to see media

Hopefully we can now put to bed any idea that we failed or underachieved by finishing behind West Brom and Norwich.

At least I got my maths right in my post …140% of revenue last season