The Button Question?

Some would argue that the answer is contained in your last word

 

So McLaren were running an illegal floor for the first 3 races?

*Gasp* I'm surprised!


Actually, no I'm not.

 

That was my immediate thought aswell! Charlie didnt turn round to RB and say your flexi wing is not a manufacturing tolerance, its a design - they just added more weight to the flex test which probably wasnt comparable to downforce generated at 200 mph!

 

Perhaps because McLaren are the biggest long-term threat to Ferrari, according to Ferrari –who pull the biggest strings within the FIA and Ecclestone camps?
I think BLS has said what many believe but are reluctant to say. I tell you that he has a feel for something where many appear to prefer to believe the camouflage:

!!

That statement shows clear bias, Silver. I am sure you remember all the arguments presented by Red Bull, in that they were complying with the regulations, with various questionable aspects of their design (I'm sure I have no need to go into detail). This set what is known as 'a precedent': that designs are legal so long as they do not exceed the parameters of the tests and made no reference to whether or not the effects were deliberate or accidental, regardless of whether or not such tests were passed or failed!

I am suggesting that you are showing bias because your defence of one team and attack of another is clearly inconsistent. (Nothing personal; just an observation, as I'm sure you'll acknowledge).

 

Nah nah cosicave, that was a tongue in cheek joke. I'm not bothered by it lol! Maybe I should of worded myself a bit better.

Sounded much funnier when I typed it in my head lol.

 

surprise surprise, Ferrari and Red-Bull can create whatever they wish but when McLaren make something its outlawed within 3 races.

 

You may have a point, Sea-Man; but I'd love to pretend that such a suggestion was outrageous…

 

pretend is the word alright

 

i think too many ppl do not look at the bigger picture.what happened in canada last year was flukey.button was about to be overtaken by lewis for a second time in that race before he got taken out.then you have the weather and safety cars and the timing of buttons final pitstop.

In 2010, Hamilton beat Button in qualifying 14-5 and in the race, 12-7. Of those races where Button was ahead, two were his wins in wet conditions at the beginning of the year, four were Hamilton's retirements (2 mechanical, 2 driver error) and one was in Japan where Hamilton had gearbox trouble. Button had two retirements that weren't his fault. In dry conditions, when neither car had any problems, Hamilton beat Button every time. The reason the points gap was small was because the top three teams were a long way ahead of the others so Button often finished only one or two places behind. Using the difference in places in the WDC just exaggerates this.

In 2011, Hamilton beat Button in qualifying 13-6, while Button beat Hamilton 10-9 in races. Again, Button had two retirements that weren't his fault. Hamilton had three retirements, of which two were driver error and one mechanical. Suddenly an apparently bigger gap is put into perspective. 2011 is widely regarded as Button's best season and Hamilton's worst, yet Hamilton still beat him comfortably in qualifying and finished ahead in half the races. The points gap is bigger because Hamilton went into self destruct at races like Malaysia, Monaco and India and finished further behind.

I don't like the term 'destroyed', but over the time they have been team mates, Hamilton has had a clear speed advantage over Button.

button is NOT faster than lewis.it just may seem that way from time to time if lewis is having to drive slower during the race for whatever reason.
i mean if alonso was faster than massa in quali and then massa was quicker in the race ppl would say"thats strange,that shouldnt be happening"the same applies if vettel was quicker in quali and webber was quicker in the race.
but lewis is quicker in quali,button at times quicker in the race,and ppl think thats perfectly normal.
i think ppl need to look at the bigger picture,by looking at everything that happened in quali and the race,then youre able to see the reality alot better.

 

You present your point well there, GUEST.
But is anyone suggesting Button is fundamentally quicker? If so, I've not noticed.

Right, that's probably my last post until sometime next week, unless I find something else within the next few minutes. Cheers all.

 

The FIA have just banned two parts of Red Bull's car, and most of the regulation changes in the last two years have seemingly been made with the intention of slowing Red Bull down. It's Mercedes who seem to be getting the rub of the green with the FIA's decisions, their stalled front wing is a lot less legal than Red Bull and Lotus's brake innovations. The fixed weight distribution was brought in because Mercedes didn't understand the 2010 Bridgestones and said the others had all lucked into finding the sweet spot on them.

 

yeah, agree with this, although with the RBR the hole was in the floor which is illegal according to the rules, however to my mind McLarens floor is technically legal it as it's rigidity is within the parameters set by the rules. It seems the 'spirit of the rules' is bought in arbitrarily, dependant on which team is flaunting them. McLaren have done almost exactly the same as RBR did, just on a different peice of bodywork, I can't see the problem, compare it to Mercedes who have what is in essence a driver controlled moving aero part. Lotus have probably been the biggest losers in the 'spirit of the rules' partial crackdown, looking at how far up the grid they are now it would've been interesting to have seen Raikkonen at the front.

 

In my view Jenson did get a few digs in at Lewis last year and could be accused of kicking a man while he was down. The comments about taking his side of the garage out for dinner, having a bigger say in this year's car, his bubble and his overall paly demeanour with MW was designed to wrestle the team from Lewis into his clutches. It would have worked but for his lacklustre performances of late.

He wasn't alone of course, there were many up and down the Paddock, some of the BBC commentaors and the F1 hacks that were glad to see Lewis apparent downfall - humbling even by the stand up guy, Jenson. How many times have people commented that Lewis is not worth a bigger contract than Jenson as Jenson is just as good if not better? How many have suggested Mclaren get rid of Lewis and pair Button with an uspstart.

If some of you have followed his career you will know that he is an up and down driver that struggles when the car is not perfect. He was good in the Williams - not as good as Ralf mind - he was rubbish in the Bennetton. Good in the BAR with the false fuel tank, rubbish with the later iterations. When the car is not perfect he is not that great - when it's in his window he is peerless. Nothing new there guys.

My opinion is that he gap between the drivers is too small nowadays. Being 2/3 tens slower than lewis now translates to missing out in Q3 or starting a few more places than Lewis. Jenson has developed the car in the wrong direction trying to close the gap. Funny how he is now going to use Lewis' set up as a baseline when he was considered the superior developer.

 

I think Lewis sums it up nicely!

"Of course I have sympathy for him. Jenson is incredibly professional. He came up to see me in my room wearing the [rocket red victory] T-shirt, as we all do when we win. Jenson is a world champion and he is massively strong. He will bounce back. You can’t write him off for the championship because one win puts you right back up there."

 

Considering Button's current form, it would seem that F1 Racing Magazine choose a poor time to put this sub-heading on the cover of the new issue.

 

So all these people were glad to see Lewis' downfall? I was hoping that this season would see an end to the paranoid delusions of Hamilton fans

 

jenson was extremely lucky in canada last year,that kind of thing will never happen again.the safety cars and timing of his final pitstop helped him massively.
but dont forget he took lewis and alonso out in that race,plus he damaged his car,plus he was alot slower than lewis before he took him out.

button has never been faster,i dont know why ppl keep saying button is/was quicker.lewis just kept crashing and getting penalties,he beat himself more than anything last year.
but he still won 3 races like jenson.
jenson did well in aus,but lewis and jenson had a different front wing in that race.in china lewis qualified in 2nd but had to start from 7th place.
and in those 2 races which jenson didnt complete,mclaren messed up lewis pitstops which allowed jenson to get ahead of lewis in those race's.

see ppl need to look at the bigger picture,button is overated imo.2010 was a poor season for jenson considering lewis failed to finish 4 races,but still finished ahead on points.

this season lewis isnt making mistakes and doesnt have to worry as much about the tyres so lewis is able to push harder in races,unlike last year when he had to drive slower,which made it look like button was faster at times.
if you asked both drivers to go flat out in indentical cars from start to finish of a race, lewis would beat button everytime.
ppl need to accept the fact unless lewis is having a shocker jenson has no chance.and in a season which is so close jenson isnt getting away with it in quali and the races like last season.this season in tougher than its been in a long time and button is failing miserably.

 

Guest - You make some valid points and I agree 100% that Lewis is faster than JB! However to inferr that JB has never outpaced Lewis in like for like conditions is both unfair and inaccurate - Oz 2012 and Japan 2011 are the obvious ones, Monza 2011 he also finished infront, but for me Monza 2010 (although Lewis crashed) JB outperformed him all weekend - especially in qualli. I have tried to restrict it to pure dry race weekends but there are others examples aswell.

 

McLaren thinks it could have found a solution to Jenson Button's recent struggles by identifying 'subtle' issues with his car's set-up that it reckons can be resolved for this weekend's European Grand Prix.

McLaren thinks it may have found a solution for Jenson Button's problems

How subtle is subtle I wonder, a knock in confidence can start a chain reaction so we'll have to see what happening in Valencia. I'm not expecting miracles, just hoping for improvement.

 

I think he just needs to have a clean weekend, qualify in the top 6 and hopefully race to a podium - anything else is a bonus!