Off Topic So, what now?

[BCFCRob]

Think about it Rob , if , as you say there is no way to resolve the Irish border question and we agree to continue talks with the backstop as it stands in place , we will never leave the implementation period , we will permanently be trapped in it .

That is why we can’t agree to it, it’s so obvious when you think about it , no country would agree to it.

Oh yes I absolutely agree with this. It's obviously a negotiating tactic, I have no problem with that. I'm just aiming this at those people who genuinely want a no deal Brexit but can't seem to understand it's impossible.

no good trying to tell him, others have tried, he may be JC's twin?

Any EU member can fly into the Republic of Ireland. Right or wrong?

Yes they can and do. Flights to Belfast are on occasions delayed because everybody is being checked, and in some cases interviewed and their identifications verified.

Absolutely. But identification verification does not mean 'require a passport'.

Then your point is invalid. So how many will? How will the Republic as point of entry facilitate it?

None of us know but that's not the point. Theoretically speaking, imagine if we opened the borders completely 6 billion people could come to the UK. We all know it won't happen, but it doesn't mean we want open borders right?

At this point in time its the EU blocking means of exploring the how's. Within the Republic government have said they would consider sensible proposals and the Polish are now mention transition periods. Within the EU its has been mentioned that apart from the UK Northern Ireland could have a special status because of its troubled past. So even with the EU's cock waving there is differing thoughts and positions united by one in Belfast, Brussels, Dublin and London - No hard border. The cocks excepting Foster and May obviously will get put away because they have to be.

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You can mention transition periods as long as you like but that would still involve freedom of movement and transition periods will always end. If there is no solution then it doesn't matter how long the period is. As far as I'm aware it's the DUP and the Tories blocking NI having special status (and understandably so).

You're still not answering the question mate. How is every single person going to be checked on a border which doesn't exist, and how are we going to check goods as required under WTO rules?

 

[BCFCRob]

And if this thread gets blocked again just because people cannot accept that I'm at least partially right then it will say everything. No deal is unfeasible as it stands.

 

[AshtonRed]

And if this thread gets blocked again just because people cannot accept that I'm at least partially right then it will say everything. No deal is unfeasible as it stands.

You think you are right, others think they are right , debate doesn’t have to have right or wrong , just different opinions, as long as it doesn’t get personal what’s the problem. Personally I like to see different opinions.

The main thing we can all agree on Rovers are Sh*te . Actually that’s not opinion that’s fact

 

[BCFCRob]

You think you are right, others think they are right , debate doesn’t have to have right or wrong , just different opinions, as long as it doesn’t get personal what’s the problem. Personally I like to see different opinions.

The main thing we can all agree on Rovers are Sh*te . Actually that’s not opinion that’s fact

Yeah that's fair enough. I totally respect people's opinions and right to want to leave. If they want to leave the EU under some sort of deal that's fine, I disagree but I have no beef whatsoever.

The frustration I have is the refusal to accept what is plain to see in black and white (i.e. a border is impossible and checks are impossible). And that's what I'm picking people up on above.

By all means, leave, support leave, hate the EU, burn the flag, do what you want . Just don't tell me facts are not facts and accept the compromise that no deal cannot be done.

 

[Red Alert]

The frustration I have is the refusal to accept what is plain to see in black and white (i.e. a border is impossible and checks are impossible). And that's what I'm picking people up on above.

Reading the thread its the other way round. Its you refusing that there cant be compromise at all ever as its all impossible. In 2019 its possible to track all sorts of goods border or none. Its very possible to track people unless they are off grid living virtually nowhere . Millions coming in via Eire?? Give it a break. When I lived abroad (non EU) there was a time limit to my visit - Australia if you overstay you get deported with force.

 

[AshtonRed]

Yeah that's fair enough. I totally respect people's opinions and right to want to leave. If they want to leave the EU under some sort of deal that's fine, I disagree but I have no beef whatsoever.

The frustration I have is the refusal to accept what is plain to see in black and white (i.e. a border is impossible and checks are impossible). And that's what I'm picking people up on above.

By all means, leave, support leave, hate the EU, burn the flag, do what you want . Just don't tell me facts are not facts and accept the compromise that no deal cannot be done.

I don’t think many are suggesting no deal as a first choice to be fair , but if the EU insist on the backstop in its present form , as explained in my earlier post, it’s not leaving us much choice if we want to leave. It’s a conundrum I appreciate. As I explained previously though both no deal and the backstop as it stands will not come into play at the end. No deal won’t happen and the backstop will be compromised in such a way as to be acceptable to both sides, as long as we hold our nerve.

 

[johngalleyfan2]

Any EU member can fly into the Republic of Ireland. Right or wrong?

to help you out, anyone can fly anywhere, so any EU CITIZEN can fly to anywhere, that includes being able to fly to Dublin or Shannon or any where else in north or south Ireland /Eire. They could fly to AYR, get a taxi / thumb a lift to Stranraer and get the Ferry, HOWEVER AFTER WE LEAVE, they may be able to fly to AYR, go through NON UK tunnel, pass customs and then thumb a lift or get a taxi to Stranraer …

 

[BCFCRob]

Reading the thread its the other way round. Its you refusing that there cant be compromise at all ever as its all impossible. In 2019 its possible to track all sorts of goods border or none. Its very possible to track people unless they are off grid living virtually nowhere . Millions coming in via Eire?? Give it a break. When I lived abroad (non EU) there was a time limit to my visit - Australia if you overstay you get deported with force.

Maybe the other way round if you don't want to accept the simple facts. I'm 100% open to compromise, that's why I am advocating Brexit but with a deal. That is literally a compromise. A no deal is zero compromise and that is what I am disputing.

How do you track people who you don't know exist Red Alert? If someone who is banned from the UK but not from the EU, flies to Ireland, we don't know their name, we don't even know they exist, how do we stop them walking to the UK?

At the moment, we know everybody coming into the UK. In the above situation, we wouldn't.

Also, how do we make sure for trade that WTO rules are being applied along the border?

to help you out, anyone can fly anywhere, so any EU CITIZEN can fly to anywhere, that includes being able to fly to Dublin or Shannon or any where else in north or south Ireland /Eire. They could fly to AYR, get a taxi / thumb a lift to Stranraer and get the Ferry, HOWEVER AFTER WE LEAVE, they may be able to fly to AYR, go through NON UK tunnel, pass customs and then thumb a lift or get a taxi to Stranraer …

Okay fair enough I probably worded it poorly. I've clarified above. What if they are banned from the UK but not Europe. How do we stop them? What if they have a substance banned in the UK but not the EU? What if they have a product banned in the UK but not the EU?

 

[BCFCRob]

I don’t think many are suggesting no deal as a first choice to be fair , but if the EU insist on the backstop in its present form , as explained in my earlier post, it’s not leaving us much choice if we want to leave. It’s a conundrum I appreciate. As I explained previously though both no deal and the backstop as it stands will not come into play at the end. No deal won’t happen and the backstop will be compromised in such a way as to be acceptable to both sides, as long as we hold our nerve.

Yep totally agree. As I said, no dispute with this at all. But I have definitely seen people post on this forum (JGF, Red Robin, etc) advocating a no deal Brexit when even other leavers know it's not feasible. That's what I take issue with.

 

[AshtonRed]

Yep totally agree. As I said, no dispute with this at all. But I have definitely seen people post on this forum (JGF, Red Robin, etc) advocating a no deal Brexit when even other leavers know it's not feasible. That's what I take issue with.

I was genuinely torn before the original vote , I voted leave but honestly thought I’d be on the losing side , & would have been fine with it , the only reason I now think we have to leave is because leave won. I am not stupid and realise there were untruths told during the original vote but believe we are intelligent enough as an electorate to include that in our decision making.

I’m sure we will all be delighted once it is all sorted out, however it comes about. I enjoy politics but even I’m getting fed up with it all .

 

[Red Alert]

Maybe the other way round if you don't want to accept the simple facts. I'm 100% open to compromise, that's why I am advocating Brexit but with a deal. That is literally a compromise. A no deal is zero compromise and that is what I am disputing.

How do you track people who you don't know exist Red Alert? If someone who is banned from the UK but not from the EU, flies to Ireland, we don't know their name, we don't even know they exist, how do we stop them walking to the UK?

At the moment, we know everybody coming into the UK. In the above situation, we wouldn't.


Okay fair enough I probably worded it poorly. I've clarified above. What if they are banned from the UK but not Europe. How do we stop them? What if they have a substance banned in the UK but not the EU? What if they have a product banned in the UK but not the EU?

??? Not sure what point you are making. I did not mention banned. If somebody flies to Eire now then goes to Northern Ireland we know who they are but if Britain leaves the EU we do not!! Well we can if they want to use banks services hotels you generally will and in other Countries you have to unless these people are disappearing off grid which is not so easy in the UK.

 

[BCFCRob]

??? Not sure what point you are making. I did not mention banned. If somebody flies to Eire now then goes to Northern Ireland we know who they are but if Britain leaves the EU we do not!! Well we can if they want to use banks services hotels you generally will and in other Countries you have to unless these people are disappearing off grid which is not so easy in the UK.

No not at all. You misunderstand my point.

I'm trying to help you understand how illegal immigration would be much easier post-Brexit, and how we will not be able to have 100% total control of our borders post-Brexit, no matter what they told us. But I'm sure I bored everybody of this long ago.

I'm not wrong on this. Even Brexiteers on Twitter are agreeing with this and how much we need a deal. I'm not being a sore loser here. Don't get me wrong, 90% of what I say on Brexit is open to opinion and you can ridicule, argue, etc. But this part is not opinion, this is plain fact. If we are going to leave the EU, we need a deal.

 

[bcfcredandwhite]

I’m sure we will all be delighted once it is all sorted out, however it comes about. I enjoy politics but even I’m getting fed up with it all .

Totally agree.
I voted Remain - after much deliberation. It wasn’t an automatic choice for me but in the end the lack of clear fact about what Leave would actually mean swayed my vote. ‘Better the devil you know...’ if you like.
I am so fed up with it now - but I also can’t help tuning into it either. It’s like a disaster that you are horrified by but you can’t stop yourself rubbernecking whilst you are there.
I also planned to retire to Spain, so it could affect my retirement plans severely.
I must admit though that as Ive said before, I don’t know that many Brexiteers personally, but I can no longer debate anything with those that I DO know because they just get very angry and it ruins the debate.
We can’t have this particular conversation about what we THINK might happen next for example, because my Brexiteer ‘acquaintances’ just scowl and repeat the old ‘we won, you lost, get over it’ broken record and won’t enter into a proper conversation about what parliament may decide to do next.
I have a feeling they are about to get angrier......!!!!! But I’ve stopped talking to them about it.
I told them straight after the 2016 referendum that there would be a second - to endorse or reject the deal negotiated by the politicians. I still believe that this will happen.
We shall see.

 

[AshtonRed]

Totally agree.
I voted Remain - after much deliberation. It wasn’t an automatic choice for me but in the end the lack of clear fact about what Leave would actually mean swayed my vote. ‘Better the devil you know...’ if you like.
I am so fed up with it now - but I also can’t help tuning into it either. It’s like a disaster that you are horrified by but you can’t stop yourself rubbernecking whilst you are there.
I also planned to retire to Spain, so it could affect my retirement plans severely.
I must admit though that as Ive said before, I don’t know that many Brexiteers personally, but I can no longer debate anything with those that I DO know because they just get very angry and it ruins the debate.
We can’t have this particular conversation about what we THINK might happen next for example, because my Brexiteer ‘acquaintances’ just scowl and repeat the old ‘we won, you lost, get over it’ broken record and won’t enter into a proper conversation about what parliament may decide to do next.
I have a feeling they are about to get angrier......!!!!! But I’ve stopped talking to them about it.
I told them straight after the 2016 referendum that there would be a second - to endorse or reject the deal negotiated by the politicians. I still believe that this will happen.
We shall see.

I believe your sincerity, but in my view another vote would only make matters worse, we HAVE to act on the original vote and leave, not to do so would open a can of worms.sorry.

 

[bcfcredandwhite]

I believe your sincerity, but in my view another vote would only make matters worse, we HAVE to act on the original vote and leave, not to do so would open a can of worms.sorry.

I actually agree Ashtonred. I said I BELIEVE that there will be a second referendum, not that I WANT it - although if it happens then of course I will vote in it.
The damage is done. The healing of the divide is more important to me than staying in the EU - and there are so many new divides in our ‘United’ Kingdom now. Brexit has thrown petrol onto the dying embers of the Scottish independence movement when it was all but defeated - and got the extremists in Northern Ireland dusting off their Semtex again. That’s not counting the English and Welsh remainers and Brexiteers who are at loggerheads.
It was so badly thought out it’s criminal - but it happened and it’s here - we somehow have to learn to live with each other again. Our country is tearing itself to pieces and it deeply saddens me.

 

[bcfcredandwhite]

There is a very poignant and relevant article in the Irish Times which I think is rather good (I read newspapers from other countries to try and get as balanced a view as possible!)
(It’s not anti-Brexit by the way - it tries to explain why people may have voted for it - from an Irish point of view) - worth a read imho.
https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.ir...-brexit-is-about-belonging-1.3765447?mode=amp

 

[BCFCRob]

That's a really good post to be fair bcfcredandwhite.

I'd support a second referendum but only because of my biased views. There are reasons why a second one would be reasonable, but then it would piss off all of the Brexit voters and understandably so. It would just cause too much damage. What would the question even bloody be?

 

[AshtonRed]

That's a really good post to be fair bcfcredandwhite.

I'd support a second referendum but only because of my biased views. There are reasons why a second one would be reasonable, but then it would piss off all of the Brexit voters and understandably so. It would just cause too much damage. What would the question even bloody be?

My problem with it is unless it’s overwhelmingly one way or the other , & I doubt it would be, it would just make matters worse, it’s bad enough already the last thing we want to do is add fuel to the fire.

 

[johngalleyfan2]

What if they have a substance banned in the UK but not the EU? What if they have a product banned in the UK but not the EU?

i c knit ping = anagram

 

[BCFCRob]

i c knit ping = anagram

It’s a legitimate problem and if it can’t be solved then no deal can’t happen JGF. No matter how much you try to dodge it.