Alternatives. The Polish within the EU are altering position. The DUP believe technology can be used. If all concerned and in particular the Northern Ireland political parties do not want a hard border there will not be one. What you see is brinkmanship Is immigration uncontrolled now? The answer is no. No they cannot. Anybody cannot get onto a plane and fly into the Republic. Its not part of Schengen. EU nationals have to have a passport. You are attempting to paint a weird illusion of millions of migrants flooding into the UK via the Republic. It will not happen and if in some strange out there scenario way what would they do when they got to the Republic and England was their choice of destination? Its a weird proposition. Northern Ireland Cities, Towns are still controlled. Ulster as my friends in Coleraine call it has overcome mammoth challenges before and will continue to do so.
Come on Cliftonville, you are deliberately twisting my words and you know it. You're insinuating I have said things that I have not. So what is this new-fangled technology that suddenly means borders can be completely open? I'd love to hear it. You could probably make a fortune, particularly given that we already need to 'take back control of our borders'. No of course not, because we are part of the EU and we can track those coming in and out. After a no deal Brexit, people can walk into NI and they will not be tracked or logged in any way. It will be totally illegal and there will be nothing to stop us from it. This is irrelevant. At no point did I say anybody can get onto a plane to Ireland. Schengen has nothing to do with it. All I said is that anyone who can get to Ireland (i.e. anyone with an EU passport - ~450,000,000 people) can then easily get to the UK after a no deal Brexit. You absolutely know the above to be true and you are trying to dodge it. The fact is a no deal Brexit gives us no extra control over our borders. None whatsoever. And actually makes us far more vulnerable to illegal immigration.
No your words are open to interpretation. I will give you the benefit of the doubt that you are not twisting others. If I wanted to twist your words it would be easy - anybody, uncontrolled, they can relate to anybody. Why not read the DUP's proposed protocol? A start. And from a controlling Northern Ireland political party who want to leave the EU and want no hard border. No I do not know your above to be absolutely true. Because it is not. Northern Ireland frequently has anti terror measure that morph given the political situation. These measures create quasi soft, softer than hard borders. Of course Brexit creates extra control over UK borders (most of them) leading to now if the UK leaves the EU with no deal. The Republic will be looking at the mechanics of one. There will compromise to stop that 450,000,000 people all suddenly getting on all these planes, ferries to swamp a relatively small Country to then travel up the A1 to Belfast and?? Its nonsense. Project fear .2
You've just written a lot without actually saying anything. There is no border between Ireland and NI, so 'quasi soft, softer than hard border' is a complete untruth. Let's make it simple. Post no-deal Brexit, if I am one of 450,000,000 EU citizens, what is stopping me from flying or sailing legally into Ireland and walking illegally into the UK? Go. And specifically, what is this technology that means that borders are suddenly unnecessary the world over? Go.
Clifton is right , it’s brinkmanship plain and simple, us threatening to leave without a deal, while possible, is also brinkmanship. If we have the balls not to cave in something will be sorted around the backstop.
Be that as it may, that doesn't make my points wrong. All it proves is that we are never going to be able to control our borders as was promised. We can never have a hard border with Ireland, and for that reason we can never stop immigration from the EU as it is today. You were lied to mate, and it's as simple as that. Unless someone can answer my two questions I've sent to Cliftonville then my point stands.
I know what Cliftonville is mate, I'm Irish myself. I was brought up in Bristol but it doesn't make me an expert in cider and balloons!
You need to take a step back Rob , you take yourself too seriously at times. Where there’s a will there’s a way, no one thought there would have been peace in NI , many people put their heads together, made compromises and achieved it . People that were deadly enemies became friends . You’d be surprised what can be achieved.
That's fair, but I'd be interested to know if anyone here seriously thinks a hard border can be achieved. Particularly Cliftonville. The Good Friday Agreement specifically states there cannot be a hard border. Theresa May is trying to change this but to do so, she needs Ireland to co-operate. Even ignoring the political tensions, it is massively unlikely. And if it was agreed, it is unlikely to stay peaceful. We may be surprised at what can be achieved but we cannot just sit here and hope a solution pops up. It's been a couple of years now and we are no closer, and we have 2 months to sort it out. It's not going to happen.
Yes exactly. So god knows what the solution is then unless we want to accept immigration as we currently have it. The only decision to be made is whether we want it to be legal immigration (i.e. with a deal/no Brexit) or illegal immigration (i.e. a no deal Brexit). Apologies if I'm repeating myself but it is a complete blocker. And people seem reluctant to accept it for what it is. And we haven't even mentioned WTO rules. If we were to have a no deal Brexit, WTO rules would require a border.
Before the good Friday agreement , there is no way any of us could have known an answer to how to stop the troubles . I wouldn’t pretend to have an answer to your question now either , but given time and good will on both sides I believe an answer will be found, it may involve technology, along with other measures, checks away from the borders maybe.
Fair enough. But I don't think backing no deal on a belief is a sensible solution to be honest. If you back Brexit then that's totally fair, but I think it's also fair to accept that as it stands, a no deal Brexit is impossible and as such we need a deal.
I feel I said quite a lot. You did not bother to read it. And also answered with untruths. Your the individual that keeps mentioning borders I added context. What I posted was not untrue. Passports are needed. There are anti terror measures that wax and wane. These are controls. These are forms of barriers, these are non physical barriers … Borders of a kind if you wish. There will be nothing to stop you travelling freely within the UK to the UK with a British passport … Actually that is not true … Anti terror measures can prevent this … And elements of the criminal justice act … These legal laws are used both on the mainland and Norther Ireland … Travel to Belfast during the Marching season and if the authorities want to stop you flying, walking, sailing in they will and do if they feel you are a worthy potential security risk ... Fact. The relationship between the Republic and Northern Ireland is unique in the EU and will be outside of it. Redtape as it is now will change. Relationships will change. The main political parties in Northern Ireland do not want a hard border. The DUP who can be viewed as idealogues do not want a hard border. Political parties there with dark and murderous pasts. Two Countries and the EU again a no. There will be compromise because there has to be. You appear to be against compromise. Why? Do you want conflict? Why are 450,000,000 EU citizens (- the UK) suddenly going to want to travel to the UK? How would the Republic facilitate that as you feel that will be the point of entry? Its not going to happen. Resolution would be reached.
This is true, but you cannot exercise these measures against every single person. There is no legal requirement for you to show your British passport when travelling between Northern Ireland and Great Britain, even though some operators may ask you to. All you need is sufficient ID. And what you refer to is just for Great Britain, for legal immigration. It doesn't solve the problem of those illegally entering Northern Ireland via the Irish border. So while you're not wrong it doesn't solve the problem. I'm not against compromise at all. It's an absolute necessity and we can agree on that. But your argument in essence is a belief that we will find a solution when 2 years so far have proven fruitless and no one has a clue where to move forward from here. Your belief may be justified on a hunch but it doesn't beat the cold hard facts. "Why are 450,000,000 EU citizens (- the UK) suddenly going to want to travel to the UK?" - as for this point, they are not going to want to. The point is that they could, extremely easily, and illegally, and it's the exact same argument used by Brexiteers to describe Romania and Turkey (which is never going to happen) joining the EU. Your post is a fair one but it doesn't answer how every single person is going to be checked on a border that cannot exist. And it doesn't answer how it will function under WTO rules which absolutely require a hard border.
It’s brinkmanship on both sides , EU using the backstop , us using no deal. As long as we hold firm there will be a coming together 11th hr , it’s how the EU negotiates , it’s their MO
Think about it Rob , if , as you say there is no way to resolve the Irish border question and we agree to continue talks with the backstop as it stands in place , we will never leave the implementation period , we will permanently be trapped in it . That is why we can’t agree to it, it’s so obvious when you think about it , no country would agree to it.
no good trying to tell him, others have tried, he may be JC's twin? not my take on the actions being proposed. there is a border between the 2 but not a hard border …. smuggling goes on all the time, and there "customs/border control agents in place to enforce it …. the fact you do not need to be stopped prove who you are what your business is is etc because we are "friendly neighbours" …. EU if you like … At THE CHANNEL PORTS passports are checked as you go through the ticket check, [ if you had some one lying on the floor under a blanket, genuine EU citizen then they could enter, but unlikely to happen!] I used to go across the channel upto [max was 6 times in 7 days ] using ferry, train and freight train, upon being pulled over for an inspection you said anybody could go to EIRE and walk in and did I THINK MENTION 500M, so 50m have emigrated/ got in already? …… lol
Yes they can and do. Flights to Belfast are on occasions delayed because everybody is being checked, and in some cases interviewed and their identifications verified. Then your point is invalid. So how many will? How will the Republic as point of entry facilitate it? At this point in time its the EU blocking means of exploring the how's. Within the Republic government have said they would consider sensible proposals and the Polish are now mention transition periods. Within the EU its has been mentioned that apart from the UK Northern Ireland could have a special status because of its troubled past. So even with the EU's cock waving there is differing thoughts and positions united by one in Belfast, Brussels, Dublin and London - No hard border. The cocks excepting Foster and May obviously will get put away because they have to be.
