Right to Die

[RebelBhoy]

Can't he just edit your quote?

Or indeed any thing at all I say......or ban me.

 

[RebelBhoy]

and for whatever it is worth, I agree.

 

[brb]

Sorry BRB, but I failed to see the connection between legalising voluntary euthanasia for those with a debilitating illness and Nazi-esque deathcamps hosting public executions.
Seems like a bit of a reach, to me.

No offence meant.

Fair enough - maybe I just have a very low value on the workings of the human mind, to which I gave the most extreme example possible to express that.

 

[Mick]

and for whatever it is worth, I agree.

with everything in this thread?

 

[RebelBhoy]

with everything in this thread?

with your Urbi et Orbi.

 

[Mick]

with your Urbi et Orbi.

joining the atheist side are you?

I'd be amazed if I was to convert a single person with my ramblings, ever - I'm not even sure if I want to convert anyone. But you know how it is, ex-smokers are always the preachiest.

 

[RebelBhoy]

joining the atheist side are you?

I'd be amazed if I was to convert a single person with my ramblings, ever - I'm not even sure if I want to convert anyone. But you know how it is, ex-smokers are always the preachiest.

Nah, There is nothing in what you said that I don't agree with though.

I completely agree we are pack animals and we take a moral lead from out contemporaries.

You don't need a God to have the instinct to take care of your clan and to look out for your fellow man. Some of the most caring and compassionate people I know are atheists and conversely the biggest **** I ever met had taken holy orders.

 

[Psychosomatic]

Abortion is murder - simple as

No, I feel differently. And there is nothing simple about such a delicate argument.

Suicide is very sad and should not be legalized

Or…..

Suicide may be very sad but people should be free to do as they please with their own lives and should not be hindered from ending them if and when they decide to do so; on the understanding that we feel compelled and have tried to offer all help and alternatives preceding their final decision and that the person who would kill themselves is not diagnosed as being clinically insane.

Which opens up another set of problems, right enough. What’s so particularly insane about wanting to end our own lives? You seemed emphatic earlier on:

If you want to die you must be mentally ill.

I feel differently. It’s an interesting and comforting concept, though, even if it falls significantly short of anything approaching a solidified version of (my own perception of) reality. That some mentally ill people wish to die seems incontrovertible, of course, no arguments there, but the notion (of wanting to die) is not thereafter automatically or logically susceptible to being classed as insane. It simply doesn’t do, I feel, to label someone as being mentally ill if they make a perfectly rational case for their own extinction. The unbending rigidity of such an outlook rather obscures the very obvious fact that a) some people will think differently and will not feel bound by such all-encompassing strictures and that b) the specious notion of human exceptionalism and/or the sanctity of life (with their origins in religion, although by no means exclusively used by the religious) are logically, dispassionately, legitimately and emphatically rejected by some of us, unmoved as we are by the spectacle of human animals treating this earth as their dominion.

Actually, I’ll leave that be. I was about to go off on a verbal bender – a very bad habit, sorry – but I can see that I’m straying from the point and opening up too many new fronts of entanglement. (And I don't mean to pick on your arguments specifically, by the way, it's just that I was skim reading - it's late - and these particular contributions of yours were short and snappy enough to deal with.)

Bed.

 

[alwaysright]

Psychosomatic

Although I have 'liked' your post (No.168), I agree more with the thoughts of Mind T S. However it is refreshing that an opinion has been expressed - with a degree of intelligence - and without the usual insult/bad language or images of arses etc. It's a real pity that there is so little such debate on GC without the descent into depravity, - and with the departure of Fan it looks like that we'll be stuck with more rubbish.

 

[BSG]

Wow that was quite an epic read... some good point snuck inbetween the childish insults.

One thing that came to mind when Toby was discussing language, life experience and self awareness was Nagel's p-zombies. In essenence you can simple not tell if any other person has sentience (spelling?) or self awareness, they simply could be displaying the expected reaction, i.e. poke them and they will say "ouch", but you have no proof they experience pain. So the idea of attributing "human rights" to a person via something that can not be proved seems perverse to me

 

[Toby]

Yet you proceded to project an argument onto Jip that he never made.

Agreed?

No. My point was that aborting a foetus is not killing a child, since the foetus isn't self aware. A women having her period is technically depriving the world of another child.

I got the 'life from conception' bit because Jip thinks that a fertilised egg is a child, I don't.

Get it now?

Also, I was right and you were wrong, but you're too much of a weasel of a man to admit it

 

[Toby]

It was a terrible argument. You are very polite to give it credence.

The relationship between thoughts and language is a massive debate in the field of linguistics, but you know **** all about it, so **** off?

 

[Medro]

One fella gets to kill himself then it opens up a big can of worms.

I think suicide is a cowards way out but lookin at that guy on the TV you can see he lives a miserable life.

Then again if not606 was running a bus trip to Switzerland I would happily give my hard earned cash for a quite a few people.

You know who you are.

 

[Toby]

You can structure thoughts without language, you just can't communicate them well with other people.
If you want to think of an action, object or colour without using the word for any of those things, then it's easy to do so, isn't it?
Language probably allows us to think in a far more articulate manner, but it's clearly not a requirement for thought.

By thought, I mean complex thought. The human brain cannot comprehend thinking without language.

Going to be late for work if I get involved with this now, will finish later.

 

[Barrie Lochrie]

One fella gets to kill himself then it opens up a big can of worms.

I think suicide is a cowards way out but lookin at that guy on the TV you can see he lives a miserable life.

Then again if not606 was running a bus trip to Switzerland I would happily give my hard earned cash for a quite a few people.

You know who you are.

Ski trip to the Alps

 

[RebelBhoy]

No. My point was that aborting a foetus is not killing a child, since the foetus isn't self aware. A women having her period is technically depriving the world of another child.

I got the 'life from conception' bit because Jip thinks that a fertilised egg is a child, I don't.

Get it now?

Also, I was right and you were wrong, but you're too much of a weasel of a man to admit it

My point was that you jumped to a conclusion. The reason I said you jumped to a conclusion is because you jumped to a conclusion. Jip pointed the following out to you

A period is an unfertilised egg, so not the same. That's like saying that stamping on a supermarket egg is just as cruel as plucking one from a bird's nest and stamping on it, killing the chick growing inside.

Pointing out to you the incontrovertible mechanics of the situation did not and does not betray personal opinion on the point at which life begins.

Your poor comprehension skills prevent you from seeing this.

The relationship between thoughts and language is a massive debate in the field of linguistics, but you know **** all about it, so **** off?

I imagine you picked it up wrong.

 

[Jip Jaap Stam]

Then again if not606 was running a bus trip to Switzerland I would happily give my hard earned cash for a quite a few people.

You know who you are.

That's lovely Medro, I've never been to Switzerland. Put my name down. Can we not fly though?

 

[Psychosomatic]

Psychosomatic

Although I have 'liked' your post (No.168), I agree more with the thoughts of Mind T S. However it is refreshing that an opinion has been expressed - with a degree of intelligence - and without the usual insult/bad language or images of arses etc. It's a real pity that there is so little such debate on GC without the descent into depravity, - and with the departure of Fan it looks like that we'll be stuck with more rubbish.

Thanks! And no worries, I feel the vast majority of people would instinctively agree with Mind The Step, as you do - nothing wrong with that. It’s pretty much established thought these days, really, but I doubt I’ll let this niggling obstacle dishearten me. Much.

 

[Toby]

My point was that you jumped to a conclusion. The reason I said you jumped to a conclusion is because you jumped to a conclusion. Jip pointed the following out to you



Pointing out to you the incontrovertible mechanics of the situation did not and does not betray personal opinion on the point at which life begins.

Your poor comprehension skills prevent you from seeing this.

Jip said this:

Why? Because I don't like babies being killed?

Talking about foetuses. Which means he thinks life begins at conception. Your feeble comprehension skills stop you from seeing it.

Give it up Rebel, you have no ****ing clue on the subject

I imagine you picked it up wrong.

I didn't, you're just too stupid to understand

 

[RebelBhoy]

Jip said this:



Talking about foetuses. Which means he thinks life begins at conception. Your feeble comprehension skills stop you from seeing it.

Give it up Rebel, you have no ****ing clue on the subject



I didn't, you're just too stupid to understand

No it does not mean that at all.

It means that at some point during gestation Jip believes the fetus is a baby. He did not specify at what that point was. You assumed he meant conception. So much so, you said "What you are saying"....now, of course that is not what he was saying not what he was implying, not what he was referring.

It is very easy to discredit you when you make **** up. You have a tendency to do this. I am helping you.....of course you could fly off the handle and tell me I don't know what I am talking about. But I do....you made an assumption. Learn to connect the dots.


And there may well be a debate between the link between thoughts and language.....but I am certain there is not one single scholar that spouts the ****e you do.