These people are always on about British Values - when tolerance and respect are pretty much the central values of our culture.
Off Topic Politics Thread
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100% They are now finally coming to terms with the votes Reform & all Farage's ex party names are traditional Labour voters. The ones that Mandelson chuckled about with the statement "‘Your preoccupation with the working-class vote is wrong. They’ve got nowhere to go.’ back in the day.
What we see now is that belief that the "pin a red rosette on a donkey and" voters were always in the bank and look what happened in Scotland with that belief! Look what is happening in Wales now!
So they are not chasing reform voters. Those reform voters are not defecting from Tories. They are traditional Labour voters that switched over time to Tory to get Brexit over the line and have now chosen to move to reform instead of returning to Labour. I said this would happen 10 years ago and was laughed at.
However the only reason Starmer is now saying what he is saying is because they've started to lose the other side of their "banker" votes to "independents" so in the space of a year they are looking very weak in terms of the next election.
Whether you think Brexit is really bad or not, and even if it is true that the pro Brexit % is lower than the anti Brexit vote the reality is that a unproportionate chunk of that chunk that are still pro Brexit are traditional Labour voters and far for them being as Blair's government belief, as per Mandelson's statement, that they would just suck it up and still vote red are now breaking off just like they did in Scotland. No lesson learnt there.
The sentiment of "we don't want these type of people" or denigrating them as low information or uneducated or misinformed does not win votes back.
As above I see nothing much wrong with Starmer's speech but that is all it was. A speech. I don't think any of it will come to fruition other than a few crumbs around the edges presented as massive achievements. I also agree with the above about 10 second attention spans and the focus of politicians being solely on getting that 10 second soundbite onto the news or twitter. I've also said that latter part for many many years.
Politicians in this era do not look long term. They look at "this week" and next week they will react to this week's opinion and flip flop constantly trying to snare favour! Nothing to do with Trump, nothing to do with Farage. In the internet age is what we are in and the political circus is the biggest user (and abuser) of social media. Political media, commentariat and the politicians themselves have dominated social media from well before Trump even thought of running the first time.
If anything the lightbulb moment in terms of political domination of the internet was Obama's run in 2008 where "big data" and "data harvesting" was first use in substantial way and a lot of the snippets and soundbites we now see all over the place became a big thing. "Yes we can."
Obama won because he was a great Orator and he and his team were great at communication. I will get you spitting at your screens saying this but Farage is equally a great Orator and a great communicator. Completely different message but they "connect" with their communication. That is entirely different to actual action because Obama for all the great speeches and immediate connection didn't actually do much at all in 8 years but thats besides the point. we are talking about winning elections here.
Labour's own ignorance and confidence that "stupid poor people will always vote for us" created the problem they are in now. Even the over inflated "educated" student body in the country is not enough to beat the "stupid poor people" so while they have 4 more years in the bank, as long as they don't self destruct from within, the outlook for the next election from this point in time is that they risk even more from both ends of their vote.
About 10 years ago I mentioned an internal report by John Cruddas and another Labour "insider" which was investigating (the obvious) why Labour's vote was imploding I think when Cameron won that first majority in 2015? It was pretty much spot on but now is even more relevant because they seem to have not taken any notice of it at all.
I should also add that Labour lurching from "centrism" to the extremes of Corbyn and then settling back somewhere inbetween with elements of each changing week to week has hurt them badly because it has shifted their voterbase substantially. The Corbyn era basically ditched the traditonal vote in favour of the young "educated" and the "right on" crowd and it is very hard to get that trad vote back once you've discard them all as "low information thickos"
Laughable that people on here are praying for a Tory bounce to dilute the Reform threat now. Tories are out for another decade at least. Labour knew that time would come just like the Tories knew they were pretty safe for a decade after the 2010 Labour collapse. They just both were too ignorant to see the Reform threat as having any realistic chance and did what the EU does "If it's a Yes, we will say 'on we go', and if it's a No we will say 'we continue'. They just say "we have listened, we will learn"..................and then ignore that and carry on as they were.
Politicians need to get back to some semblance of doing what the voting populace are voting for whether they agree with it or not rather than doing what their quangos say is best for the public or they will all be toast in 10 years time. The whole "Once people experience reform making a mess of things" argument is not a good place to be in. The cat is out of the bag. new parties can get support fast now. Communication and big data is very powerful. The old complacent parties need to wise up and listen to their elections. Not cave into them, just not ignore them while saying "we hear you."
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HIGNFY
At the peace talks in Istanbul, there’s chaos after the Russian delegation suddenly occupies a table belonging to the Ukrainians, and claims it was Russian all along.
At the peace talks in Istanbul, there’s chaos after the Russian delegation suddenly occupies a table belonging to the Ukrainians, and claims it was Russian all along.
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The only correct thing you typed
No one (I mean majority) do not care about this at all. People vote for a government. The days of "my local MP blah blah were gone a long long time ago. No one cares about this. If it mattered there would be zero need for a local council leader or a county council leader.
Lol
Rlying on "they will be worse and there will be involved in scandals" is not gonna work. We are in "Freebie Kier era already. Labour and Tory Mps are involved in social media "scandals" all the time.
Nobody can get a GP or Dentist appointment anyway. People are stuck in waiting rooms anyway. Most of what people are saying about reform's intentions on the NHS the public don't believe and even what reform's opponents try to present as "the truth" was put in motion by Mr Blair and John Reid wanting to involve the private sector more and more and more. "But the NHS" is becoming a tired buzzword for people that experience worse and worse outcomes from the service. Maybe when Blair's PFI deals are finally paid the money can actually go to services instead of the fat cats he made rich through them?
This has almost zero effect on the people who are in target range for reform. Trump is the other side of the pond. No-one cares who Farage is friends with or close to.
No one knows the Tories/Labour's policies as they change from week to week and they don't action them anyway. Words.
Against incumbents that have many many years of experience.........while everything gets worse! Can new people do any worse than the old people?
compared to Starmer's income? Cameron's income? Boris' income? Even the "working class" Labour Mps have feathered their nests nicely and have money most of us can only dream of. This is a non starter. No one cares about this.
Again. Labour and Tory get their money from these same sources. Many of reforms funders have flipped from backing one of the 2 main parties. Labour should worry more about why vast amounts of their union members are voting or intending to vote reform!!
They would love this. coalitions that do lots of talking but get nothing done. Labour will not change this system while they are in power. They will demand it changes when they are smashed up. rinse repeat. People want action not loads of talking shops.
The press is not the problem. It is the incumbent bunch of politicos that have been too comfy in their complete ignorance of any threat to their power, dismissing any chance of outsiders breaking their cabal which resulted in them feeling able to do what they want and ignore any dissent from voters that has caused this. Nothing to do with the press at all.
All your points are emblematic of the problem here. The main take from your points is "Reform will be worse followed by a lot of statements about things people wouldn't like about Farage are things that they don't about all the other MPs i.e. their social groups, their income, their funding. Why would they care about that on Farage and not "the good guys?
Starmer is about to unravel his own party and collapse it from within. u-turns incoming. re shuffle likely to be very damaging. There will be a lot of fracturing on all this. He's only been in power less than a year and the cracks are opening fast!
Reeves is likely gonna get the chop within a year and an increasing amount of the Labour left are even saying Starmer will not be the leader going into the next election!
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I see the Halfwit-In-Chief is now throwing out childish insults at Bruce Springsteen and Taylor Swift.
Reads like it was A I generated.
I do wonder what music Trump listens to. I would imagine a Thatcher -like 'Doggie in the window' epiphany.
He's a village people fan
That would be brilliant but even better if he never appreciated the connotations! I could see Trump being the one in the head hat.
I think some of this is probably engineered seeing as its a public playlist:
https://www.independent.co.uk/news/...potify-playlist-favourite-songs-b2523868.html
however this is pretty believable from 2016:
https://www.bbc.co.uk/music/articles/e5e4572a-0676-4120-9eb3-d34bbea34836
I am not sure about Trump being a Steve Reich fan ! I would agree with him on that and Toots and The May talk. Political leaders always have poor taste in music at least until Barak Obama and , er, Kenneth Clark.
You have to remember that the majority of musicians (at least in the modern era) are further "left" than the populace in US and UK (and probably most western democracies) We'll not go into how they can be so left wing when they are full on capitalists living in mansions (or many of) assets abound but that is another story.
The populace itself is much more centered in terms of being social democrats towards the right. Full on left wing is niche outside of people that are more comfortable financially or pre-programmed dreamers that are recently exited from or still in university and most of them if they don;t make the upper echelons will slowly turn at minimum social democrat once they get used to real life and money.
I've seen hundreds of posts on things like Rage against the machine videos right through to Bob Dylan but the responses are normally something like "because it rocks" or "Lol RATM are the machine, middle class high educated privileged kids signed to Sony for their debut."
Bob Dylan began as "against the establishment" and over the years has become one of them. capitalist, pretty much "one of them" although of course I don'"There ist mean MAGA. I just mean one of those enjoying the high life but singing about the downtrodden while doing so.
U2 / Bono - left wing? you are having a laugh. lol
When I reply to any post that calls something music, I reply because I like the music. "but the lyrics" someone will say! words. lol. Rich kids singing about changing the world to help the poor kids. I sing a long but its just words. But the music? Rockin. love it
So I have no doubt Trump might like all sorts of things then and now that might conflict (in your eyes) with political leanings but if your ears like Abba, you can't tell them not to like it
Like I've said for years. I do not consider myself right wing. I'm a cocktail of different leanings and (to me) just more of a common sense person however increasingly politics is becoming either/or with us or against us (often niche) stuffs and I guess will go even more that way as time goes on. There is no middle ground or concessions anymore and it becomes a crime to the tribe to not toe the line on every position. No mixing and matching or seeing different viewpoints. 100% this way or 100% that way on every policy or you're "one of them."
Never ages this, Probably never will. Very political without being direct or shoving it down your throat. Just says things like they are:
"There is unrest in the forest
Trouble with the trees
For the maples want more sunlight
And the oaks ignore their pleas
The trouble with the maples
(And they're quite convinced they're right)
They say the oaks are just too lofty
And they grab up all the light
But the oaks can't help their feelings
If they like the way they're made
And they wonder why the maples
Can't be happy in their shade
There is trouble in the forest
And the creatures all have fled
As the maples scream, "Oppression"
And the oaks just shake their heads
So the maples formed a union
And demanded equal rights
They say, "The oaks are just too greedy
We will make them give us light"
Now there's no more oak oppression
For they passed a noble law
And the trees are all kept equal
By hatchet, axe, and saw"
But honestly @Ian Thumwood what needs to change is people like yourself saying what you want the "environment" to be like. You often tell us that X is happening or Y is happening because you want it to be rather than the reality. And yes maybe some will call me a black kettle when they disagree with what I say is happening but I say what I believe to be happening and not what the media do and tell us "the public.........." when outside of the Westminster bubble no-one is saying what they are saying.
I pretty much think if Labour returned to the left of centre ground of focusing on workers (labour
) actual workers rights without putting people out of work and then focused on the upcoming issue of automation and AI which will put thousands out of jobs (or make half the population servants of the workers in coffee bars / retail outlets) they could win back the trust however while they are tuned into student politics and identity politics which are in reality niche subjects of the voter's focus then they will lose out to parties that (say that they) will look after these "normal" things.You might be surprised that I think a form of "universal income" is inevitable with the rise of AI. Either that or we stop having children completely.
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Nobody here on the left ever mentions - or cares about - identity politics. However, the people on the right bleat on about them incessantly, insisting that we do. Now, if you are calling the upcoming climate disaster a niche topic, you should probably spend a day with climate scientists- and you will realise that story is not being remotely oversold.You have to remember that the majority of musicians (at least in the modern era) are further "left" than the populace in US and UK (and probably most western democracies) We'll not go into how they can be so left wing when they are full on capitalists living in mansions (or many of) assets abound but that is another story.
The populace itself is much more centered in terms of being social democrats towards the right. Full on left wing is niche outside of people that are more comfortable financially or pre-programmed dreamers that are recently exited from or still in university and most of them if they don;t make the upper echelons will slowly turn at minimum social democrat once they get used to real life and money.
I've seen hundreds of posts on things like Rage against the machine videos right through to Bob Dylan but the responses are normally something like "because it rocks" or "Lol RATM are the machine, middle class high educated privileged kids signed to Sony for their debut."
Bob Dylan began as "against the establishment" and over the years has become one of them. capitalist, pretty much "one of them" although of course I don'"There ist mean MAGA. I just mean one of those enjoying the high life but singing about the downtrodden while doing so.
U2 / Bono - left wing? you are having a laugh. lol
When I reply to any post that calls something music, I reply because I like the music. "but the lyrics" someone will say! words. lol. Rich kids singing about changing the world to help the poor kids. I sing a long but its just words. But the music? Rockin. love it
So I have no doubt Trump might like all sorts of things then and now that might conflict (in your eyes) with political leanings but if your ears like Abba, you can't tell them not to like it
Like I've said for years. I do not consider myself right wing. I'm a cocktail of different leanings and (to me) just more of a common sense person however increasingly politics is becoming either/or with us or against us (often niche) stuffs and I guess will go even more that way as time goes on. There is no middle ground or concessions anymore and it becomes a crime to the tribe to not toe the line on every position. No mixing and matching or seeing different viewpoints. 100% this way or 100% that way on every policy or you're "one of them."
Never ages this, Probably never will. Very political without being direct or shoving it down your throat. Just says things like they are:
"There is unrest in the forest
Trouble with the trees
For the maples want more sunlight
And the oaks ignore their pleas
The trouble with the maples
(And they're quite convinced they're right)
They say the oaks are just too lofty
And they grab up all the light
But the oaks can't help their feelings
If they like the way they're made
And they wonder why the maples
Can't be happy in their shade
There is trouble in the forest
And the creatures all have fled
As the maples scream, "Oppression"
And the oaks just shake their heads
So the maples formed a union
And demanded equal rights
They say, "The oaks are just too greedy
We will make them give us light"
Now there's no more oak oppression
For they passed a noble law
And the trees are all kept equal
By hatchet, axe, and saw"
But honestly @Ian Thumwood what needs to change is people like yourself saying what you want the "environment" to be like. You often tell us that X is happening or Y is happening because you want it to be rather than the reality. And yes maybe some will call me a black kettle when they disagree with what I say is happening but I say what I believe to be happening and not what the media do and tell us "the public.........." when outside of the Westminster bubble no-one is saying what they are saying.
I pretty much think if Labour returned to the left of centre ground of focusing on workers (labour
You might be surprised that I think a form of "universal income" is inevitable with the rise of AI. Either that or we stop having children completely.
I think it is a good point about millionnaire pop musicians being Left Wing but most musicians scrape by and dont make a mint. Few jazz musicians become rich through their music. Working in a symphony orchestra necessitates earning extra income through teaching.
I have a fascinating book about this subject which, in obe chapter, deals with the politics of big bandleaders in 1930s America where many had very strong leanings to the Left such as Benny Goodman and Artie Shaw. Pianist Teddy Wilson was a Marxist. At the same time they demanded significant fees for hotel residencies albeit they had suffered through the Depression. I never appreciated how significant the American Communist Party was in the 1930s. It was far more entrenched than with Trump calling out Springsteen. The book is called 'Swingin' the dream' by Lewis Erenberg. It was an eye opener as to how the musical mainstream in 30s and 40s was aligned to Communism much further than you would think.
I have a fascinating book about this subject which, in obe chapter, deals with the politics of big bandleaders in 1930s America where many had very strong leanings to the Left such as Benny Goodman and Artie Shaw. Pianist Teddy Wilson was a Marxist. At the same time they demanded significant fees for hotel residencies albeit they had suffered through the Depression. I never appreciated how significant the American Communist Party was in the 1930s. It was far more entrenched than with Trump calling out Springsteen. The book is called 'Swingin' the dream' by Lewis Erenberg. It was an eye opener as to how the musical mainstream in 30s and 40s was aligned to Communism much further than you would think.
Spiked is such a weird magazine. The founders were part of the UK’s Revolutionary Communist Party, and then form the magazine Living Marxism. They were forced to shut down after a particularly offensive article denying Serbian war crimes - and were then reborn as Spiked. Spiked has managed to continue basically contrarian politics of Living Marxism while drifting further and further to the right. Things like Climate Denial fit their brand image - which purports to be common sense yet is actually actively contrarian and rarely makes any effort to challenge rightwing orthodoxy. It is also a magazine that pretends to be for the people and against the wealthy people it thinks are in control - yet has been shown to be funded by the world’s 22nd richest man, Richard Koch.
What am I saying? Spiked is morally bankrupt, born of leftwing envy and drifting further into righting nutter territory. Which is fun when it was born out of leftwing nutter territory.
What am I saying? Spiked is morally bankrupt, born of leftwing envy and drifting further into righting nutter territory. Which is fun when it was born out of leftwing nutter territory.
All very interesting, but there’s no escaping the fact you’d have to be very stupid indeed, to even consider voting Reform. So there’s that.
Clearly there are a lot of very stupid people around, especially it would seem in the North of England. But I’m not sure listening to stupid is going to help anyone. It almost never does.
I didn't say people on here mentioned identity politics. I said the left "do" identity politics. If you hold a contrary view on anything you're "one of them." Sign up to everything wholesale or you're out.
Your climate change mention exemplifies the "either/or" though. Most people are not "climate deniers." Most opposition to "net zero" are not climate deniers nor are they against trying to reduce carbon emissions. but hey ho, If you don't sign up to net zero you are a denier
No middle ground here of course. We should all bow down to the net zero project 100% or you don't care at all.
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Being against Net Zero does not equal climate denial. And I would suggest that the left has moved away from what it was. Spiked's formation you are correct about. I would suggest that the current format has people from all sides not just left. There can sometimes be contradictory articles on there from 2 people with different viewpoints.
It isn't a propaganda magazine where everyone has to be singing from the same hymn sheet although it may be turning that way purely because there is now a habit of each side (but more the left) to not contribute to anything that may "air" viewpoints from "the other side" so outlets like Prospect and Spiked are becoming less balanced as time goes on as the "the other side" don't contribute to these sort of mixed view outlets anymore.
IMO Most of Spiked's articles are pretty common sense whether they come from (old) left wing writers or right wing writers. Some articles are a bit over the top and some are 100% someone's pet subject but overall it does mirror my viewpoints on a lot of things. Prospect too I agree with quite a lot of things in there despite it being "the other side" in general. That is if I am to be considered right wing which I don't class myself as.
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