Off Topic Politics Thread

[ImpSaint]

I think it is a good point about millionnaire pop musicians being Left Wing but most musicians scrape by and dont make a mint. Few jazz musicians become rich through their music. Working in a symphony orchestra necessitates earning extra income through teaching.

I have a fascinating book about this subject which, in obe chapter, deals with the politics of big bandleaders in 1930s America where many had very strong leanings to the Left such as Benny Goodman and Artie Shaw. Pianist Teddy Wilson was a Marxist. At the same time they demanded significant fees for hotel residencies albeit they had suffered through the Depression. I never appreciated how significant the American Communist Party was in the 1930s. It was far more entrenched than with Trump calling out Springsteen. The book is called 'Swingin' the dream' by Lewis Erenberg. It was an eye opener as to how the musical mainstream in 30s and 40s was aligned to Communism much further than you would think.

The problem (its not a problem) for musicians is that they cannot choose their audience, and music (like sport) is a unifier. Drop your beliefs at the door and a smorgasbord of leanings join together to enjoy each other's company for once.

 

[ImpSaint]

All very interesting, but there’s no escaping the fact you’d have to be very stupid indeed, to even consider voting Reform. So there’s that.

Clearly there are a lot of very stupid people around, especially it would seem in the North of England. But I’m not sure listening to stupid is going to help anyone. It almost never does.

But Labour and Tories still need those votes. Stupid or not, they need those votes and were happy to take those stupid votes when they were too stupid to ever vote anywhere else "because my Grandad and Dad voted Labour."

 

[Archers Road]

But Labour and Tories still need those votes. Stupid or not, they need those votes and were happy to take those stupid votes when they were too stupid to ever vote anywhere else "because my Grandad and Dad voted Labour."

I suppose. My granddad and dad would be heartbroken if I voted anything other than Labour. My son votes Green though.

 

[ImpSaint]

I suppose. My granddad and dad would be heartbroken if I voted anything other than Labour. My son votes Green though.

I know my parents voted Lib Dem through the 90s. No idea how they vote now. Not something we talk about. I know both sets of Grandparents were 100% Labour but then both grandads were working class manual workers and I guess back in the day the housewives tended to mirror their husbands in their voting intentions.

 

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I didn't say people on here mentioned identity politics. I said the left "do" identity politics. If you hold a contrary view on anything you're "one of them." Sign up to everything wholesale or you're out.

Your climate change mention exemplifies the "either/or" though. Most people are not "climate deniers." Most opposition to "net zero" are not climate deniers nor are they against trying to reduce carbon emissions. but hey ho, If you don't sign up to net zero you are a denier No middle ground here of course. We should all bow down to the net zero project 100% or you don't care at all.

Net Zero was one of the few global pushes towards an ideological better future. Most of the opposition to it is pure hocum and backwards thinking. And sure, we can say. China make all the pollution, why bother? But I personally put my kids and the future of the planet first.

 

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Being against Net Zero does not equal climate denial. And I would suggest that the left has moved away from what it was. Spiked's formation you are correct about. I would suggest that the current format has people from all sides not just left. There can sometimes be contradictory articles on there from 2 people with different viewpoints.

It isn't a propaganda magazine where everyone has to be singing from the same hymn sheet although it may be turning that way purely because there is now a habit of each side (but more the left) to not contribute to anything that may "air" viewpoints from "the other side" so outlets like Prospect and Spiked are becoming less balanced as time goes on as the "the other side" don't contribute to these sort of mixed view outlets anymore.

IMO Most of Spiked's articles are pretty common sense whether they come from (old) left wing writers or right wing writers. Some articles are a bit over the top and some are 100% someone's pet subject but overall it does mirror my viewpoints on a lot of things. Prospect too I agree with quite a lot of things in there despite it being "the other side" in general. That is if I am to be considered right wing which I don't class myself as.

You say the left goes on about identity politics and then say you are a regular reader of a magazine absolutely obsessed with identity politics…

 

[ImpSaint]

Net Zero was one of the few global pushes towards an ideological better future. Most of the opposition to it is pure hocum and backwards thinking. And sure, we can say. China make all the pollution, why bother? But I personally put my kids and the future of the planet first.

Net zero is a pet project of the rich. We can all mostly agree something needs to be done and fast however these guys are using the "good subject" to make money off our backs. Using "good things" to emotionally blackmail the rest of us into compliance while they make mega money! I do my recycling, I buy my energy from SoEnergy which sources "all its electricity" from renewables. Doesn't mean I agree with the cash grab that is going on off the back of that good cause!

 

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Net zero is a pet project of the rich. We can all mostly agree something needs to be done and fast however these guys are using the "good subject" to make money off our backs. Using "good things" to emotionally blackmail the rest of us into compliance while they make mega money! I do my recycling, I buy my energy from SoEnergy which sources "all its electricity" from renewables. Doesn't mean I agree with the cash grab that is going on off the back of that good cause!

What nonsense. The rich are the oil people. The rich are the ones who profit most from the non stop attacks on green as the future. That is the true common sense. Too common for some, apparently.

 

[ImpSaint]

You say the left goes on about identity politics and then say you are a regular reader of a magazine absolutely obsessed with identity politics…

Again. I didn't say the left "go on about" identity politics. They just do identity politics. They don't even mention identity politics. Its just something they do (in this era.)

The exponents of something rarely mention that of which they are exponents of. It is those that oppose them that call them out for it which then of course the exponents of it retort with "you're always going on about [insert what they are exponents of]

Its very hard to look at oneself and often one is attuned to ones own smell and doesn't notice it until it gets really bad.

↑↑↑ I used "one" instead of "you" because you seem to think everytime I say something I am referring to you personally.

I read Spiked and Prospect near daily. yes.

 

[ImpSaint]

What nonsense. The rich are the oil people. The rich are the ones who profit most from the non stop attacks on green as the future. That is the true common sense. Too common for some, apparently.

I agree the oil people are rich but there's a lot of money in the green economy....also politically onside with the left - Dale Vince but sure enough making money out of the poor while they are pretending to care about the poor. Same as the old boss.

 

[......loading......]

Again. I didn't say the left "go on about" identity politics. They just do identity politics. They don't even mention identity politics. Its just something they do (in this era.)

The exponents of something rarely mention that of which they are exponents of. It is those that oppose them that call them out for it which then of course the exponents of it retort with "you're always going on about [insert what they are exponents of]

Its very hard to look at oneself and often one is attuned to ones own smell and doesn't notice it until it gets really bad.

↑↑↑ I used "one" instead of "you" because you seem to think everytime I say something I am referring to you personally.

I don’t think you are referring to me. I wouldn’t care either way. Everybody does ‘identity’. If you are bothered by one view of identity then you are doing identity politics. What you mean is the left are embracing of forms of identity you find difficult to digest - and therefore appear to be doing identity. I grew up under a foul Tory government that told me good identity was about financial attainment and ****ting on your neighbours. That white was right. West was best. Christian more important than non. All is identity.

 

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I agree the oil people are rich but there's a lot of money in the green economy....also politically onside with the left - Dale Vince but sure enough making money out of the poor while they are pretending to care about the poor. Same as the old boss.

But one of those is the past and on is undoubtedly the future - and a better future. So yeah, bow down to rich businessmen like Koch who want to pull the wool over your eyes and inflate their already vaulted wealth.

 

[Ian Thumwood]

Some of the less reputable news websites are suggesting the tide is turning against Trump.

 

[Le Tissier's Laces]

“Like I've said for years. I do not consider myself right wing. I'm a cocktail of different leanings and (to me) just more of a common sense person however increasingly politics is becoming either/or with us or against us (often niche) stuffs and I guess will go even more that way as time goes on. There is no middle ground or concessions anymore and it becomes a crime to the tribe to not toe the line on every position. No mixing and matching or seeing different viewpoints. 100% this way or 100% that way on every policy or you're "one of them."”

This paragraph is absolutely so true

Excellent use of Rush too

 

[ImpSaint]

I don’t think you are referring to me. I wouldn’t care either way. Everybody does ‘identity’. If you are bothered by one view of identity then you are doing identity politics. What you mean is the left are embracing of forms of identity you find difficult to digest - and therefore appear to be doing identity. I grew up under a foul Tory government that told me good identity was about financial attainment and ****ting on your neighbours. That white was right. West was best. Christian more important than non. All is identity.

You must be older than me then. I'm 50. Never have I heard the Tories tell me/us "white is right" , sh** on your neightbours. Christian bit yes

financial attainment was definitely part of it but then how do you then assess the left wing argument that basically complains that today's folk can't do that? They are basically saying the same that financial attainment is the ideal and bemoaning that people don't have access / ability to do it today! They aren't saying financial attainment was bad and denouncing it as an ideal. They are confirming it.

And West is best which is why I can understand why everyone wants to come to the west.

Anyways Eurovision is on. see ya later.

 

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You must be older than me then. I'm 50. Never have I heard the Tories tell me/us "white is right" , sh** on your neightbours. Christian bit yes

financial attainment was definitely part of it but then how do you then assess the left wing argument that basically complains that today's folk can't do that? They are basically saying the same that financial attainment is the ideal and bemoaning that people don't have access / ability to do it today! They aren't saying financial attainment was bad and denouncing it as an ideal. They are confirming it.

And West is best which is why I can understand why everyone wants to come to the west.

Anyways Eurovision is on. see ya later.

You want it both ways, apparently. You want to say the left are all about culture without saying it, yet the Tory values - which were pushed without being said - you deny. The 80s was a horrible time politically and saw the dismantling of the UK’s social identity.

The world owes us nothing. We have taken everything and exist in vast wealth still for a nation of our size. The biggest identity issue now seems to be white people no get fair treatment - when they live lives of absolute hedonistic joy in comparison to people of the same social position as them anywhere else on earth.

The older generation need to grow up, accept that the pensioners have lived in the very best time imaginable and stop voting against the interests of young people out of nostalgia. They also need to accept the world is rebalancing. White male orthodoxy is being challenged. If you are against that then that smacks of insecurity to me. I don’t remember all these right whingers complaining about two-tier policing of the black community. Or about women not getting equal pay.

 

[ImpSaint]

You want it both ways, apparently. You want to say the left are all about culture without saying it, yet the Tory values - which were pushed without being said - you deny. The 80s was a horrible time politically and saw the dismantling of the UK’s social identity.

The left are all about an imagined culture they want to be. The right are about an identity that was despite the world moving on. I am in between there Yes the 80s was grim. I grew up through it. It was tough but my parents apparently are now privileged because they scraped through that focusing on buying and paying for a house! Most crying now about poverty in the UK would definitely not have survived the 80s! and while my Dad had a good solid government job for 41 years! (benefits agency) back then state jobs were well behind in the payscale than private sector and single income was hard to pay for your house and bring up your family with no tax credits, no free childcare and multiple other stuff that the government now gives to (qualifying) families. Back then it was have kids, you pay for them and wifey stays at home to look after them.

The world owes us nothing. We have taken everything and exist in vast wealth still for a nation of our size. The biggest identity issue now seems to be white people no get fair treatment - when they live lives of absolute hedonistic joy in comparison to people of the same social position as them anywhere else on earth.

We agree here too. So why do Labour/"the left" want to say a quarter of the population is in poverty (including me) when they are not?

Wholesale parity (not equality) to "balance things to "non whites" is causing problems for the whites. Qutie possibly because the non white's parents quite often have even more traditional conservative values than their white counterparts and are much more likely to invest aspiration and hard work values into their young than their white counterparts.

If it were about equality and not parity, and they 100% focused on people and not "this section of people" I would 100% give that my support.....but they don't.

The older generation need to grow up, accept that the pensioners have lived in the very best time imaginable and stop voting against the interests of young people out of nostalgia. They also need to accept the world is rebalancing. White male orthodoxy is being challenged. If you are against that then that smacks of insecurity to me. I don’t remember all these right whingers complaining about two-tier policing of the black community. Or about women not getting equal pay.

So the pensioners lived in the very best times.........that in your first paragraph you said were a horrible time. Hmmm. I agree the world is rebalancing but that is not what the left want to do or do do. They want to shove the whole thing to the other end without progressing at a pace that brings others with them. "white male orthodoxy" was being challenged decades ago. The 90s "modern man" for example. No problem with chauvinism being called out i it is actually chauvanism.

Equally I don't think anyone really has anything against equal pay............but for equal jobs. The whole "asda" ruling where till workers got equalised with warehouse work is just wrong because they are different jobs and as someone who has worked in manual work a lot jobs that are harder physically are often avoided by people, hence market rate ends up paying those jobs more. Women should be free to do those warehouse jobs if they desire and thus earn the "premium" caused by a market rate. If we are talking any job across the board. women should be paid equal rate as the men for the same job. I agree

I also think that most (even reform voters) want policing to be the same no matter your skin pigment or religion or standing in the world. This is not the "horrible 80s" that you blank out when saying today's pensioners had it all so good Believe it or not we have progressed from those days no matter how people want to present anything right wing (or more accurately not mirroring the current left wing) as being 80s skinhead NF types.

 

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The left are all about an imagined culture they want to be. The right are about an identity that was despite the world moving on. I am in between there Yes the 80s was grim. I grew up through it. It was tough but my parents apparently are now privileged because they scraped through that focusing on buying and paying for a house! Most crying now about poverty in the UK would definitely not have survived the 80s! and while my Dad had a good solid government job for 41 years! (benefits agency) back then state jobs were well behind in the payscale than private sector and single income was hard to pay for your house and bring up your family with no tax credits, no free childcare and multiple other stuff that the government now gives to (qualifying) families. Back then it was have kids, you pay for them and wifey stays at home to look after them.

We agree here too. So why do Labour/"the left" want to say a quarter of the population is in poverty (including me) when they are not?

Wholesale parity (not equality) to "balance things to "non whites" is causing problems for the whites. Qutie possibly because the non white's parents quite often have even more traditional conservative values than their white counterparts and are much more likely to invest aspiration and hard work values into their young than their white counterparts.

If it were about equality and not parity, and they 100% focused on people and not "this section of people" I would 100% give that my support.....but they don't.



So the pensioners lived in the very best times.........that in your first paragraph you said were a horrible time. Hmmm. I agree the world is rebalancing but that is not what the left want to do or do do. They want to shove the whole thing to the other end without progressing at a pace that brings others with them. "white male orthodoxy" was being challenged decades ago. The 90s "modern man" for example. No problem with chauvinism being called out i it is actually chauvanism.

Equally I don't think anyone really has anything against equal pay............but for equal jobs. The whole "asda" ruling where till workers got equalised with warehouse work is just wrong because they are different jobs and as someone who has worked in manual work a lot jobs that are harder physically are often avoided by people, hence market rate ends up paying those jobs more. Women should be free to do those warehouse jobs if they desire and thus earn the "premium" caused by a market rate. If we are talking any job across the board. women should be paid equal rate as the men for the same job. I agree

I also think that most (even reform voters) want policing to be the same no matter your skin pigment or religion or standing in the world. This is not the "horrible 80s" that you blank out when saying today's pensioners had it all so good Believe it or not we have progressed from those days no matter how people want to present anything right wing (or more accurately not mirroring the current left wing) as being 80s skinhead NF types.

Is it easier to deliberately misread me and then quote your own misreading at me than engage properly? I said the 80s were a horrible time POLITICALLY. They were, however, a time when this nation’s social assets still served the people and were not given away. My parents paid £50 per month for our 3 bedroom house. They may have been poorer but, on minimal wages, they were able yo buy a house now worth £500,000.
A young person today is totally reliant on the bank of mum and dad. Our parents generation were not.

Edit to say Asda has not seen a drop on profits since this horrendous pay equity decision. So maybe it doesn’t hurt the billion pound a year profit company to pay everyone a good salary.

 

[ImpSaint]

Is it easier to deliberately misread me and then quote your own misreading at me than engage properly? I said the 80s were a horrible time POLITICALLY. They were, however, a time when this nation’s social assets still served the people and were not given away. My parents paid £50 per month for our 3 bedroom house. They may have been poorer but, on minimal wages, they were able yo buy a house now worth £500,000.
A young person today is totally reliant on the bank of mum and dad. Our parents generation were not.

Edit to say Asda has not seen a drop on profits since this horrendous pay equity decision. So maybe it doesn’t hurt the billion pound a year profit company to pay everyone a good salary.

My parents did the same as yours. we lived like sh*t, not the comparative comfort their equivalents of today live with no help form government like today. They made sacriices. They owe the youth of today that expect to live their lives without sacrifice nothing. That is my point. Yes house prices are much higher now but today you get tax credits which you are able to count as household income towards mortgages!!

People get lots more help today than back then where it was "look after yourself" and in the main most people di look after themselves hence why they have assets and got on with life. While there were less actual repossessions in the '81 recession than the financial crisis. The country was decimated by that one with absolutely no help from government.

My parent pushed the boat out in that recession to get a good house and then spent the next 10-15 years living on bare means until that mortgage levelled out more. Remember also at that time 10%+ interest rates and 10%+ inflation was the norm!!! not just occasional.

My opinion is that my parents deserve everything they have because until their 40s at least they made big sacrifices to afford it and now live comfortably, even very comfortably because of that sacrifice with a valuable asset they will hope to leave to their children IF the government doesn't steal its worth from them. They already paid tax on their money before paying for that house. They then paid the taxes included in the mortgage too. They should not have to pay tax on what they already paid tax on.

Your parents must have got their mortgage earlier than mine. Pretty sure my parent's mortgage was more than double the £50 you say yours was and South prices were already way ahead of North even back then. Remember this was also an era with mis-sold mortgages as well.

My parents was an endowment which was very hard first years but as the years went on eased as the mortgage in real terms became lower as a % of their income and by the time my sister and I hit our adulthood it was minimal but growing up we had absolutely nothing. Everything went into paying for that house. And well done to them and many thanks to them for their sacrifice. I hope they enjoy their retirement for another 20 or more years as they deserve it.

 

[......loading......]

My parents did the same as yours. we lived like sh*t, not the comparative comfort their equivalents of today live with no help form government like today. They made sacriices. They owe the youth of today that expect to live their lives without sacrifice nothing. That is my point. Yes house prices are much higher now but today you get tax credits which you are able to count as household income towards mortgages!!

People get lots more help today than back then where it was "look after yourself" and in the main most people di look after themselves hence why they have assets and got on with life. While there were less actual repossessions in the '81 recession than the financial crisis. The country was decimated by that one with absolutely no help from government.

My parent pushed the boat out in that recession to get a good house and then spent the next 10-15 years living on bare means until that mortgage levelled out more. Remember also at that time 10%+ interest rates and 10%+ inflation was the norm!!! not just occasional.

My opinion is that my parents deserve everything they have because until their 40s at least they made big sacrifices to afford it and now live comfortably, even very comfortably because of that sacrifice with a valuable asset they will hope to leave to their children IF the government doesn't steal its worth from them. They already paid tax on their money before paying for that house. They then paid the taxes included in the mortgage too. They should not have to pay tax on what they already paid tax on.

Your parents must have got their mortgage earlier than mine. Pretty sure my parent's mortgage was more than double the £50 you say yours was and South prices were already way ahead of North even back then. Remember this was also an era with mis-sold mortgages as well.

My parents was an endowment which was very hard first years but as the years went on eased as the mortgage in real terms became lower as a % of their income and by the time my sister and I hit our adulthood it was minimal but growing up we had absolutely nothing. Everything went into paying for that house. And well done to them and many thanks to them for their sacrifice. I hope they enjoy their retirement for another 20 or more years as they deserve it.

£50 was their rent. For a month. Before getting any mortgage. Now young people are splashing bare minimum ten times that, probably 20 times that, up the wall every month.

Nah, you are living in fairy land if you think wage slavery and rent slavery with very small disposable incomes and no long term hope of changing your circumstances is better off than our parents’ generation.