Off Topic Politics Thread

[Schad]

It also simply isn't a winning political argument. Ron DeSantis set himself up in the US Republican primary by spending years railing against trans people. 'Stopping the woke' was his #1 platform plank. It was meant to be his chance to outflank Trump on the right. Turns out that even American conservatives doesn't really give a ****. He finished a distant second in the very first (of more than fifty) contests and immediately ended his campaign.

Rishi's polling double-digits behind. Has polled double-digits behind in every single poll since he became PM. And notably, despite playing this card to shore up his right flank, most polling in recent months has the Tories losing a significant vote share to Farage's merry band of loonies. He's debasing himself, and getting a lot of people hurt in the process, in a desperate attempt to win votes...and there just aren't any votes to win there.

 

[Shandy_top_89]

Looks like he’s got off the hook with it, doesn’t seem to be a story anywhere today.

Meanwhile Labour ditching their Green pledge is everywhere, potentially moronic call depending on how far they have gone with it.

 

[Osvaldorama]

Looks like he’s got off the hook with it, doesn’t seem to be a story anywhere today.

Meanwhile Labour ditching their Green pledge is everywhere, potentially moronic call depending on how far they have gone with it.

I think it’s a fantastic call.

Wasting money on absurd climate policies which cause nothing but harm to society is a good move.

Energy independence & sane energy policies that don’t cater to the loony climate-doomers is a huge and necessary change if they want to win votes.

 

[Shandy_top_89]

I think it’s a fantastic call.

Wasting money on absurd climate policies which cause nothing but harm to society is a good move.

Energy independence & sane energy policies that don’t cater to the loony climate-doomers is a huge and necessary change if they want to win votes.

I mean that is a take, but elements of this such as insulation investment were projected to be profitable for the country long term and key to future energy independence, so do we just give up entirely on long term planning? (Something we are piss poor at anyway).

 

[Le Tissier's Laces]

Looks like he’s got off the hook with it, doesn’t seem to be a story anywhere today.

Meanwhile Labour ditching their Green pledge is everywhere, potentially moronic call depending on how far they have gone with it.

Quite a big article in The Times about it.

 

[......loading......]

Politics is so tribal. It is as bad as football. Most people wear their colours with pride - but you need to be flexible and vote the way that will benefit the country.

The way some people vote is equivalent to: I could never vote for Labour, they had a really bad team in the 1970s. Couldn't stand them. Dirty Red bastards. I am a blue man through and through. Yeah, we got relegated. Yeah the team sucks and maybe we are under investigation from breaking spending rules, but they are my team. Better than those Red Scummers. Oh they are a bad lot. With their Chopper Harris and all that. I remember, once, back in 1948, their lot crossed a picket line. Nah, could never vote for them.

 

[Saintjoey]

Politics is so tribal. It is as bad as football. Most people wear their colours with pride - but you need to be flexible and vote the way that will benefit the country.

The way some people vote is equivalent to: I could never vote for Labour, they had a really bad team in the 1970s. Couldn't stand them. Dirty Red bastards. I am a blue man through and through. Yeah, we got relegated. Yeah the team sucks and maybe we are under investigation from breaking spending rules, but they are my team. Better than those Red Scummers. Oh they are a bad lot. With their Chopper Harris and all that. I remember, once, back in 1948, their lot crossed a picket line. Nah, could never vote for them.

Yep. There are probably some tropes that do hold true through the generations but I really think people should just vote based on the facts they’re presented with.

 

[San Tejón]

I’ve steered clear of all discussion on transgender simply because I don’t have enough understanding about it (yeah I know, never stopped me in the past on other topics, before someone else says it) and don’t really have an opinion, other than people should be able to live their lives the way they want to, within the laws. And yes I understand that there is much to be considered about transgender people using male/female facilities etc amongst other things, that needs to be taken seriously by politicians.
With regards to Sunak’s comment yesterday, I find it ironic that a MAN who has made an ill judged comment about transgender, doesn’t have the BALLS to apologise.

 

[StJabbo1]

Politics is so tribal. It is as bad as football. Most people wear their colours with pride - but you need to be flexible and vote the way that will benefit the country.

The way some people vote is equivalent to: I could never vote for Labour, they had a really bad team in the 1970s. Couldn't stand them. Dirty Red bastards. I am a blue man through and through. Yeah, we got relegated. Yeah the team sucks and maybe we are under investigation from breaking spending rules, but they are my team. Better than those Red Scummers. Oh they are a bad lot. With their Chopper Harris and all that. I remember, once, back in 1948, their lot crossed a picket line. Nah, could never vote for them.

Since the brexit vote and the pandemic the tribal aspect has become more polarised and virulent sometimes violent. Default to insult has become the norm for many.

 

[Saintjoey]

I know the overwhelming view on here is pro Palestine, but don’t fall into the trap of assuming that people that disagree with you are automatically the worst people alive. There is plenty of space for nuance and conversation.

This is an extremely eloquent speech from an Labour Australian MP in parliament yesterday.

You must log in or register to see media

I really recommend watching it with an open mind as it is a measured alternative view.

edit: for context, a member of the Green Party referred to Jews (not Israelis, although would still be sickening) as having tentacles, one of the major nazi antisemitic tropes.

 

[AberdeenSaint]

This is also somewhat untrue though. In isolation I agree that Brown’s plan was good, and that labour did actually manage the financial crisis pretty well.

However the thing that people miss is that finance is upstream of politics. Stuff happens in the financial world first (most of the time).

Politicians have as much less control over the economy than they want people to believe. What they do instead is manipulate data and statistics to try and hoodwink the general public into thinking they have done something.

Prime example; Sunak trying to claim credit for bringing down inflation. He keeps banging on about it. It’s an outright lie. Inflation has nothing to do with his work. It’s mostly to do with the Fed and BoE raising interest rates.

Both parties are guilty of lying. It’s worth saying because whilst people argue the toss about labour vs. Tory, the reality is they are both guilty of horrendous mismanagement of the country’s finance over decades and decades.

Both parties debase the currency and steal from the citizens whilst simultaneously providing less & less value.

Liz Truss has single handedly tried to disprove your theory!

 

[San Tejón]

Politics is so tribal. It is as bad as football. Most people wear their colours with pride - but you need to be flexible and vote the way that will benefit the country.

The way some people vote is equivalent to: I could never vote for Labour, they had a really bad team in the 1970s. Couldn't stand them. Dirty Red bastards. I am a blue man through and through. Yeah, we got relegated. Yeah the team sucks and maybe we are under investigation from breaking spending rules, but they are my team. Better than those Red Scummers. Oh they are a bad lot. With their Chopper Harris and all that. I remember, once, back in 1948, their lot crossed a picket line. Nah, could never vote for them.

I have always been left of centre, not extreme, but am more socialist than capitalist.
With FPTP I could see myself voting for a different left of centre party, if I lived in a constituency where voting for Labour would be a waste of my vote and if it helped another party unseat a Tory.
Voting to benefit the country is like VAR looking at a handball in the box, and it seems that everyone has their own opinion on what is a benefit to the country.
I don’t see any benefits in voting for the Tories, especially now they have stopped pretending that they give a flying fig about anything other than enriching themselves and their donors. It’s good that some professed Tory voters are now recognising this but it’s not as if the party has actually changed. They’ve always been like this but are now just more open about it.
It is my belief that, given chance, the Tories would eradicate anything built on social principles and if they ever get back in total control of the country, then you can kiss goodbye to the NHS, because they will eventually sell it off and create an insurance based system that will be of no benefit to the majority of the population of the country.

 

[StJabbo1]

Yep. There are probably some tropes that do hold true through the generations but I really think people should just vote based on the facts they’re presented with.

Separating fact from fiction is the problem. The brexit campaign is a case in point, it's widely accepted that leave out lied the remain camp aided and abetted by the likes of the Telegraph, Mail, Express, Sun et al. This from Sky illustrates the reasons why there is a collapse in trust in politicians. https://news.sky.com/story/dishones...sh-calls-for-rules-to-stop-mps-lying-12976524.

 

[StJabbo1]

Liz Truss has single handedly tried to disprove your theory!

Didn't just try she ****ing well tanked it!

 

[......loading......]

I know the overwhelming view on here is pro Palestine, but don’t fall into the trap of assuming that people that disagree with you are automatically the worst people alive. There is plenty of space for nuance and conversation.

This is an extremely eloquent speech from an Labour Australian MP in parliament yesterday.

You must log in or register to see media

I really recommend watching it with an open mind as it is a measured alternative view.

edit: for context, a member of the Green Party referred to Jews (not Israelis, although would still be sickening) as having tentacles, one of the major nazi antisemitic tropes.

It is a very good speech. However, he needs to also accept that killing 26,000 Palestinians has not been a good move in the PR war.

He calls on us to believe Hamas. Well, Hamas have made it quite clear they do not care about the lives of Palestinians. They see them as fodder for their ideological war on Israel. Killing Palestinians to get to Hamas was and always will be what Hamas wanted Israel to do. And they are doing it. And there are still videos coming out of Israelis enjoying it. And videos of Israelis having parties where they dress up as muslims - all hideous mockeries in the very style of the horrendous tentacles image.

Very good speeches like this cannot counteract the horrendous PR disaster that Israel is enacting on itself.

 

[Saintjoey]

It is a very good speech. However, he needs to also accept that killing 26,000 Palestinians has not been a good move in the PR war.

He calls on us to believe Hamas. Well, Hamas have made it quite clear they do not care about the lives of Palestinians. They see them as fodder for their ideological war on Israel. Killing Palestinians to get to Hamas was and always will be what Hamas wanted Israel to do. And they are doing it. And there are still videos coming out of Israelis enjoying it. And videos of Israelis having parties where they dress up as muslims - all hideous mockeries in the very style of the horrendous tentacles image.

Very good speeches like this cannot counteract the horrendous PR disaster that Israel is enacting on itself.

You can really passionately oppose antisemitism and also strongly criticise Israel though. When the two crossover, particularly in western society, it’s a pretty dangerous place to be.
The IDF mockeries are disgusting. I don’t believe they speak for the IDF as a whole and you get that happening in literally all armies, but they are indefensible and they make my skin crawl.

But my point is, without even going into any detail, that society has to be very careful about disgusting antisemitism that is now unashamedly prevalent. Lots of people are using antizionism as a front for that, particularly when you consider 90% of Jews are Zionists (they believe Jews have a right to a homeland and self determination).
There’s a reason it’s known through history as the canary in the coalmine.

 

[......loading......]

You can really passionately oppose antisemitism and also strongly criticise Israel though. When the two crossover, particularly in western society, it’s a pretty dangerous place to be.
The IDF mockeries are disgusting. I don’t believe they speak for the IDF as a whole and you get that happening in literally all armies, but they are indefensible and they make my skin crawl.

But my point is, without even going into any detail, that society has to be very careful about disgusting antisemitism that is now unashamedly prevalent. Lots of people are using antizionism as a front for that, particularly when you consider 90% of Jews are Zionists (they believe Jews have a right to a homeland and self determination).
There’s a reason it’s known through history as the canary in the coalmine.

I am totally onboard with you. My point is that right now, in this moment, the strongest proponent of anti-jewish sentiment in the world is... the actions of Israel and the continuing anti-islamic videos being produced by Israelis. They are flat out racist. There are so many of them on Reddit. You can find so many videos with Israelis saying muslims aren't human or don't deserve to live. Videos of IDF forces beating old men. People surrendering and then being stamped on repeatedly.

This is not a war. It is a PR war. And Hamas, doing the most brutal and cruel thing, seem to have won. That should never have happened. Israel were given ammunition to turn this in their favour but they did exactly what Hamas knew they would do. They used it as an excuse for more brutality. I said at the time and I still say, they correct response would have been grief, mourning and asking the Islamic countries to find the perpetrators and enact justice.

If this could have been done co-operatively, the world would be mourning with Israel. But this is a mess and 26000 innocent people have died after the initial horror of the 1100 dead Israelis.

 

[Saintjoey]

I am totally onboard with you. My point is that right now, in this moment, the strongest proponent of anti-jewish sentiment in the world is... the actions of Israel and the continuing anti-islamic videos being produced by Israelis. They are flat out racist. There are so many of them on Reddit. You can find so many videos with Israelis saying muslims aren't human or don't deserve to live. Videos of IDF forces beating old men. People surrendering and then being stamped on repeatedly.

This is not a war. It is a PR war. And Hamas, doing the most brutal and cruel thing, seem to have won. That should never have happened. Israel were given ammunition to turn this in their favour but they did exactly what Hamas knew they would do. They used it as an excuse for more brutality. I said at the time and I still say, they correct response would have been grief, mourning and asking the Islamic countries to find the perpetrators and enact justice.

If this could have been done co-operatively, the world would be mourning with Israel. But this is a mess and 26000 innocent people have died after the initial horror of the 1100 dead Israelis.

Please excuse the long post!
I have spent hours mirroring your thoughts and agonising over what could have been done differently to save lives. I come back to the same conclusion that is this:

1) within hours of 7/10 there were thousands of people in the streets of major western cities (London included) and across the Arab world celebrating the attack. They call it resistance, they genuinely see no issue with it. They have debased Jews to that level. We see this when they rip down hostage posters.
2) Even if Israel hadn’t responded that movement would have grown. Perhaps more so if Israel appeared weak in its response, perhaps less so. But it would have increased compared with 6/10.
3) Israel cannot share a border with a government whose whole ethos and purpose is to destroy Jews around the world.
4) the Jews that Hamas killed were the most left leaning, pro Palestinian Jews in the whole of Israel. Many of those killed drove Gazans to medical appointments, ran workshops assimilating them etc. This has turned leftist, progressive Israelis against Palestinians.
5) we all know about the right wing nut jobs in the Israeli government. Leftists moving to the right has empowered them but they still remain unpopular among normal Israeli voters. The government would lose an election very badly tomorrow, if one was called. There is still a desire for peace even despite the growing hate.
6) 90% of Palestinians in Gaza and even more in the West Bank support Hamas and 7/10. So both sides are now utterly dehumanised to one another.
7) The PA/UNRWA and all other organisations in Gaza and/or the West Bank are so committed to teaching children to hate Jews and martyr themselves that there will always be a threat as long as that is allowed. This was shown on the intifadas and also on 7/10 and since.

So, what other option did Israel have? Having western public opinion on their side would not keep them safe from a genuinely existential threat.

But notwithstanding all of that, I believe that the Pro Israel side should be saddened and sickened by the loss of life in Gaza and that pro Palestinians should not sink as low as to intimidate Jews.

As I mentioned on here a while ago, we knew a family whose little girl was taken hostage after seeing her parents killed. So, of course, we are heavily personally biased. We can’t get our head around that level of evil being allowed to exist next to Israel, it’s incredibly raw for us. We are a peace loving family, we’ve had Ukrainians living with us for 2 years, who, by the way, despise Hamas and the threat they carry. We have never dehumanised anyone.

We abhor the idea of violence. This is more nuanced than somebody supporting Israel’s right to defence suddenly being murderous and heartless. I guess that’s the main point I’m trying to make - don’t be too quick to judge when you don’t know what drives people’s views.

I don’t believe peace with Hamas in power is peace at all for anyone, either side of the border.

 

[Saintjoey]

I am totally onboard with you. My point is that right now, in this moment, the strongest proponent of anti-jewish sentiment in the world is... the actions of Israel and the continuing anti-islamic videos being produced by Israelis. They are flat out racist. There are so many of them on Reddit. You can find so many videos with Israelis saying muslims aren't human or don't deserve to live. Videos of IDF forces beating old men. People surrendering and then being stamped on repeatedly.

This is not a war. It is a PR war. And Hamas, doing the most brutal and cruel thing, seem to have won. That should never have happened. Israel were given ammunition to turn this in their favour but they did exactly what Hamas knew they would do. They used it as an excuse for more brutality. I said at the time and I still say, they correct response would have been grief, mourning and asking the Islamic countries to find the perpetrators and enact justice.

If this could have been done co-operatively, the world would be mourning with Israel. But this is a mess and 26000 innocent people have died after the initial horror of the 1100 dead Israelis.

Also 26,000 ‘innocent’ people includes 10,500 Hamas. It doesn’t make the 16,000 any less tragic but is an important point to make. The Hamas healthy authority conveniently omits these figures.

 

[Libby]

Please excuse the long post!
I have spent hours mirroring your thoughts and agonising over what could have been done differently to save lives. I come back to the same conclusion that is this:

1) within hours of 7/10 there were thousands of people in the streets of major western cities (London included) and across the Arab world celebrating the attack. They call it resistance, they genuinely see no issue with it. They have debased Jews to that level. We see this when they rip down hostage posters.
2) Even if Israel hadn’t responded that movement would have grown. Perhaps more so if Israel appeared weak in its response, perhaps less so. But it would have increased compared with 6/10.
3) Israel cannot share a border with a government whose whole ethos and purpose is to destroy Jews around the world.
4) the Jews that Hamas killed were the most left leaning, pro Palestinian Jews in the whole of Israel. Many of those killed drove Gazans to medical appointments, ran workshops assimilating them etc. This has turned leftist, progressive Israelis against Palestinians.
5) we all know about the right wing nut jobs in the Israeli government. Leftists moving to the right has empowered them but they still remain unpopular among normal Israeli voters. The government would lose an election very badly tomorrow, if one was called. There is still a desire for peace even despite the growing hate.
6) 90% of Palestinians in Gaza and even more in the West Bank support Hamas and 7/10. So both sides are now utterly dehumanised to one another.
7) The PA/UNRWA and all other organisations in Gaza and/or the West Bank are so committed to teaching children to hate Jews and martyr themselves that there will always be a threat as long as that is allowed. This was shown on the intifadas and also on 7/10 and since.

So, what other option did Israel have? Having western public opinion on their side would not keep them safe from a genuinely existential threat.

But notwithstanding all of that, I believe that the Pro Israel side should be saddened and sickened by the loss of life in Gaza and that pro Palestinians should not sink as low as to intimidate Jews.

As I mentioned on here a while ago, we knew a family whose little girl was taken hostage after seeing her parents killed. So, of course, we are heavily personally biased. We can’t get our head around that level of evil being allowed to exist next to Israel, it’s incredibly raw for us. We are a peace loving family, we’ve had Ukrainians living with us for 2 years, who, by the way, despise Hamas and the threat they carry. We have never dehumanised anyone.

We abhor the idea of violence. This is more nuanced than somebody supporting Israel’s right to defence suddenly being murderous and heartless. I guess that’s the main point I’m trying to make - don’t be too quick to judge when you don’t know what drives people’s views.

I don’t believe peace with Hamas in power is peace at all for anyone, either side of the border.

I don't disagree with any of this tbh but you can't ignore the fact that the Israeli land grabs and repression of the Palestinians for decades and decades is what allows Hamas to gain popularity.

Without that then Hamas would never have gained the popularity it has done. It doesn't excuse terrorism of course - nothing does - but it's a simple (and sad) fact of life that when people have been treated that way for so long and have ran out of peaceful ways to protest that they will inevitably turn to violence.

Sorry to hear about your friends daughter. It's horrendous and nobody should go through that. I'm very uncomfortable with the way many media are equating the hostages with Palestinian prisoners. It just doesn't sit right with me despite the fact some of those prisoners will essentially be hostages as well.