I'll go through this: 1) within hours of 7/10 there were thousands of people in the streets of major western cities (London included) and across the Arab world celebrating the attack. They call it resistance, they genuinely see no issue with it. They have debased Jews to that level. We see this when they rip down hostage posters. This isn't true. Or it isn't true in the sense that supports it as an excuse for what has happened. The global response was overridingly of shock and horror. There was a genuine groundswell of pro-israeli comments around the world. You can actually go through popular social media platforms and time stamp them. You can track that pro-israel feeling - and see it quite quickly collapse along with the bloodthirsty response. 2) Even if Israel hadn’t responded that movement would have grown. Perhaps more so if Israel appeared weak in its response, perhaps less so. But it would have increased compared with 6/10. This ignores the importance of narrative building. The narrative being built is that Hamas does what it does because Israel is so brutal. Israel has played into that narrative 100%. A weak response here was the correct one. This isn't war. This is murder. By fighting back in the way they have, the Israelis have made this look like war. It should have been murder. 3) Israel cannot share a border with a government whose whole ethos and purpose is to destroy Jews around the world. Israel cannot share a border with a government it doesn't recognise or cooperate with. Not apportioning blame for this, but this is two sides who both PREFER to hate each other. 4) the Jews that Hamas killed were the most left leaning, pro Palestinian Jews in the whole of Israel. Many of those killed drove Gazans to medical appointments, ran workshops assimilating them etc. This has turned leftist, progressive Israelis against Palestinians. Does this matter? The issue is global feeling and not internal. I have met young Israelis and they are incredibly patriotic. They all serve in the army. They are brought up to distrust Palestinians. None of that impacts on the global message - and I still assert Hamas, bizarrely, have won that. They have committed an atrocity that ISRAEL has converted into a war. This is such an epic blunder I think it will be being written about 100 years from now. 5) we all know about the right wing nut jobs in the Israeli government. Leftists moving to the right has empowered them but they still remain unpopular among normal Israeli voters. The government would lose an election very badly tomorrow, if one was called. There is still a desire for peace even despite the growing hate. But ring wing nut jobs were elected last time and most probably will be elected tomorrow. This situation has worsened that. And it really doesn't help that so many radical zionists move there from the US. 6) 90% of Palestinians in Gaza and even more in the West Bank support Hamas and 7/10. So both sides are now utterly dehumanised to one another. Of course they do. All they see is Israel throttling their nation and blowing them up. This war won't change that. It simply won't. 7) The PA/UNRWA and all other organisations in Gaza and/or the West Bank are so committed to teaching children to hate Jews and martyr themselves that there will always be a threat as long as that is allowed. This was shown on the intifadas and also on 7/10 and since. But what does it say in holy books about people with different religions? I won't use this as an opportunity to repeat my feelings on religion, but it isn't helping either side. I don't disagree with any of your sentiments. I think Hamas is pure evil. I also think the Israeli government is pretty evil. I think all the innocents on both sides are suffering and no amount of bombs will ever end this conflict. You have to make Palestinians feel like life is great and it is better with Israeli help. And you have to keep doing it for 2 generations. Otherwise this is just blood and murder and words.
Yes I think the land-grabbing is definitely a part of it. The settler situation is not sustainable and breeds further hatred and polarisation. But I think it's too simplistic to place the blame entirely on Israel. It's hard to overstate how much aid they've received (mainly from Europe and the US by the way, not from their Arab neighbours) and that aid has been spent on tunnels, rockets etc. It's chicken and egg, I suppose, when you understand than 7/10 was planned for so many years, you can understand why Israel would want to impose checks on imports into Gaza and monitor that. That is then described as a blockade, but what's the alternative? To give them free rein to import billions of dollars of weapons from Iran? I have a real problem with people who view the whole conflict through the oppressed vs oppressor lens when you'll struggle to find a people more oppressed against than Jewish people over the years and a more oppressive force than the Conquests, but that's a whole new matter. But I do agree with your post, I just don't think you can portray them as 100% victims in all of this. Thanks for your wishes, as well, our friends are the aunt and uncle (as opposed to the deceased parents) who weren't there that day, their lives are just in tatters. As, of course, are many thousands of lives in Gaza. Anyway, I think it's important to engage on these difficult conversations, with people who have opposite views. Such a sensitive and polarising issue even before 7/10.
@......loading...... I won't bore everyone with replying in depth, partly because my mental bandwidth is already pretty low, but I do appreciate your points. I disagree with a fair amount but also genuinely understand the perspective and agree with parts, too. As I said above, it's good to debate and engage this without people getting overcome by emotion and automatically seeing somebody with a different view as an enemy or a bad person, because it's just not that simple. Ultimately, if peace is ever achieved, it will be by listening and debating constructively. I just implore people not to think that somebody who is Pro-Israel is automatically for the death of civilians, it just isn't that simple and it doesn't mean you have to agree or support the Israeli government or everything the IDF is doing (although totally appreciate your point that if the PR war is making it that simple and binary, then there's an argument Hamas has won the war).
Yeah I didn't mean to say they were 100% victims so apologies if it came across that way. I just struggle with the narrative (not from you) that Israel just want to live peacefully and have been attacked unprovoked. The complex history is part of the problem though as for every atrocity by one side they can point to one by the other too and it's been going on for so long now it's really unhelpful and just perpetuates the cycle. Ultimately I don't think there'll ever be peace there in my lifetime. Needs far too many things to fall into place and it just doesn't seem realistic. Even a change in government for each that would surely be required seems a long way off.
You didn’t come across that way, I was just responding to a commonly held view, that’s all! Two changes of government would definitely help! I think we’ll have that within a few years. But then the hard work will begin.
I've read numerous reports of warnings given from various sources including https://www.timesofisrael.com/surve...warnings-ignored-charge-sexism-played-a-role/ also by Eygpt and the US, Why weren't they heeded and acted on it's unlikely the horrific scenario we have today would have occured,
The Nobel Peace Prize for 1994 was awarded, in alphabetical order, to Yasir Arafat, Shimon Peres and Yitzhak Rabin The Hostage taking was a trap that Hamas knew Netanyahu would jump into and now the Israelis and Palestinians are suffering because of this My stance currently appears more pro-Palestinian and anti-Israeli simply simply because its currently them suffering and dying I'm certainly not pro-Hamas or pro-Israeli Govt
Rabin assassinated by an Israeli ultranationalist and Arafat declining a peace deal which led the way to the second intifada. probably sums up the whole situation perfectly. What could have been…
I see American politics is nose-diving yet further into the abyss. I suppose at least the doddery old bugger did return the files and consented to searches, as opposed to the orange monster, but it doesn't reflect well on anyone at all. The whole circus is frankly embarrassing.
Team Rishi galvanised. I don't like the cut of their jibe https://www.theguardian.com/politic...y-philpster-to-tackle-pmqs-trans-joke-fallout
Cracking choice isn't it Senile milquetoast vs Senile maniac The latter is genuinely a threat to the Western World and democracy in the US though, so the choice should be easy despite being crap. A generation that clung on to power for too long.
Well. I think the criticism aimed at tucker Carlson before the interview was pretty unfair. I have never heard a journalist directly ask Putin “to release a hostage because keeping him there degrades Russia” before. That takes great bravery and he did ask some hard questions. Fascinating, fascinating interview. What’s slightly terrifying for me is that Putin can talk without notes for half an hour about complex Russian political history. Our politicians in the west don’t know what they’ve had for lunch without being prompted
Have you seen the alternatives though? Absolutely bang average, if not worse. I did think Nikki Hayley could be a viable alternative to Trump. Polls show she would beat Biden comfortably. But the republican base is just utterly brainwashed. It’s inexplicable really, given that Biden is polled to beat Trump as things stand. The problem is with every gaffe, his approvals reduce.
You've hit the nail on the head. Biden IMO is an awful President, but if the alternative is Trump, then he is the next messiah. 331 million people to choose from and 'the world's most powerful nation' can only come up with a senile (but essentially 'nice') old man and an old megalomaniac lunatic. For all our failings, we aren't that bad over here (yet)
I honestly think if Biden gets re-elected, at some point in his 2nd term the 25th Amendment will be invoked, for one reason or another...
