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Nottingham........

Discussion in 'Bristol City' started by Redprintt, Oct 9, 2020.

  1. Angelicnumber16

    Angelicnumber16 Well-Known Member

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    I get that, but people being all over each other against the guidance advice, and with not even a mask between them really isn't going to help matters. And even if they don't get Covid themselves, there is nothing to say they won't pass it on to others. Others potentially being their own parents/grandparents who could then die.
     
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  2. Cliftonville

    Cliftonville Well-Known Member

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    That is about social responsibility. We all have a choice. If I do not follow guidelines in my work for various elements of what I do e.g medication I endanger others. Adhering to covid-19 guidelines is that moral choice.

    Reading this thread people appear to want absolutes. Covid -19 and its environment is divergent. The responses to the virus will also be divergent. Our responses do not have to be. The absolute is the virus is spread by contact routes = You me us can behave as the Government, public health England etc informed by science guide us to suppress this pandemic.
     
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  3. BCFCRob

    BCFCRob Well-Known Member

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    Yeah I can't agree with this I'm afraid. I see you come in and defend what they're trying to do quite frequently, and to some degree that's fair because it is totally unprecedented and there is no real precedent for this, so that side is totally fair.

    But the fact is, objectively, the way this government have handled it is a shambles. Our test and trace system is the most expensive out of comparable countries and it is next to useless. The testing capacity is abysmal. The economy is tanking the most out of comparable countries. We have the highest infection and death rate out of comparable countries. Spin it the other way. I don't actually know how they could do this any worse.

    So when you say 'which ever party were leading this would be making the same mistakes', I'm 99% certain this is untrue. No matter how much people may hate Labour or the Lib Dems or the Greens or whoever, you can bet that they would have actually listened to the science. They would have locked down earlier, both at the beginning, and now. They wouldn't be playing this game of chicken in a desperate attempt to save the economy which they ruined through their lack of action.

    Ironically, the Conservatives, who are known for allegedly maintaining a strong economy, desperately tried not to lockdown in the beginning to save it, and in doing so actually doomed the economy. 2 weeks' difference could have saved so much more across the board, in deaths, infections, and money. We were the slowest to react, and it bit us on the arse. Let's not forget, we even had 2 weeks' head start over Italy and Spain, and we still ****ed it. And rather than learning from it, they're doing the exact same thing today. And we're going to pay for it over Christmas and into 2021.

    Sorry to be morbid, but the numbers are sky high, the new measures brought in are absolutely nowhere near enough (in all honesty I'm not even 100% sure what the rules in my area are any more). It's going to be a very tough winter, and I just hope there is some light at the end of the tunnel somewhere in between.

    Oddly enough, I can only agree with a point in the post above me. We have to rise above the mish mash of rules which are clear as mud, and just be sensible ourselves and protect those around us. And try to stay safe as best as we can.
     
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  4. realred1952

    realred1952 Well-Known Member

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    the thing about blaming the .gov is 90% of those that vote non tory condemn their actions, all based on hindsight. in a perverse sort of way this virus is like mixing paint …. you have a tin of base paint...white say ...and a few tubes of paint dye .. you are aiming for a specific colour so add dye mix and not right mix after adding another bit of dye etc … until you get it [ this is mixing by hand not by machine ] which would work off a colour chart and computer programme ]

    You may be certain, it being your opinion, but reality is " Sir Keith Hindsight, change my mind every few days" has only once in the past months put forward a suggestion …after the umpteenth time Boris told him to "express what he would do" close schools for 2 weeks!! which he pinched off the NI gov who implemented it days before to start next week!

    I stated a few days ago a delay of 2 weeks may have done the same … but reality is this is a new event .. covid 19 it does not follow hard fast rules! Follow what other countries are doing and you risk the same errors or gain the bits they may get right! The north of Italy was in a total lock down … but virus kept spreading ..people kept dying … but the rest of Italy was affected but no where as badly... now look at UK! AND COMPARE TO THOSE EARLY days in Italy.... heavily populated areas are victims … [ each person in Italy has about 4+ times more space per capita than us in UK!]
    you [WE ] have a problem with money... so we can sit down with a pen and paper for a couple of hours and list this that and the other and make different arrangements for our budget …. .gov would have to take in more information... to get a conclusion might take a few weeks … but as they are doing it other things appear and disappear … you cant save money on an infection like this! Labour probably could [ worker orientated fund wise ] they would pay £?? bn to workers and finish up bankrupt as companies by their 100's, maybe 1000's went bankrupt also
     
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  5. BCFCRob

    BCFCRob Well-Known Member

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    Yeah this is absolutely true, but there does become a line when the criticism is actually justified and not just digging 'because it's the government'. When your country is performing as one of the worst on every metric that's a pretty fair indicator.
     
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  6. Cliftonville

    Cliftonville Well-Known Member

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    The UK is not performing worst on every metric.

    Infection rates and death rates are fluctuiating. The UK death rate has been decreasing v infection rates. The demographics that are becoming infected have altered and this is not mirrored evenly across European nations.
     
    #46
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  7. Redprintt

    Redprintt Well-Known Member

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    Rob, something I don't understand. Why is the government to blame ?

    They have provided massive amounts of money, isn't it the actual test and trace people and labs that are failing.
     
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  8. oneforthebristolcity

    oneforthebristolcity Well-Known Member

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    Need to be very careful with these figures........You could fall off a ladder and get rushed into hospital, be tested for Covid and be positive..later die because of your injuries.....but you would be known as a Covid statistic..............Sorry mate....blame game the current government is easy when the party you support aren't part of it!!!
     
    #48
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  9. BCFCRob

    BCFCRob Well-Known Member

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    UK economy was the hardest hit among major economies from April to June with a 20.4% contraction (those nations on average contracted 9.8%)

    Population-adjusted we have the third worst record of Covid deaths in Europe (and 10th in the world)

    Granted, it's very difficult to quantify who is the 'worst' and the 'best'. But whichever way you look, we're certainly one of the worst performing countries in the modern world. For a country with the wealth and supposed expertise that we have, we've done very poorly.

    Yep they have provided massive amounts of money. Enormous amounts actually. At the start of the pandemic, most countries were lining up to use the joint Google/Apple contact tracing system. It was open source, so people can see exactly how it works and how it uses your data, and seemingly perfect for the situation we were in. Seeing as Apple and Google make up 99% of the mobile phone operating system market, it couldn't be better.

    And what did we do? Our government threw millions (possibly billions) at an app that Dominic Cummings wanted to control. Why would you do this when there is a perfectly functional option available? Knowing Cummings and how he illegally used data during the Brexit referendum - well you can imagine why they might want to make their own app which isn't open-source. A ready made excuse to follow everybody, learn their behaviours and locations, and use that to their advantage.... Let's not forget that at times, it can be argued that data is now a more valuable commodity than oil. That's how useful it is. They wanted our data. And they put the interests of themselves over the health of the nation.

    They tried, and ultimately failed, and in June they gave up, and went ahead with the aforementioned Google and Apple venture, which they should have done in the first place. This 'NHS' app recently came out, and I phrase it as 'NHS' because it is not NHS at all, and is instead operated by Serco, and they've even managed to balls this up. Since coming out the app has had over 12,000,000 downloads... and it has sent out just one Covid venue notification.

    Just bear that in mind. £12bn - and it has sent out ONE venue notification. While other countries have perfectly functioning apps which can stop the spread of the disease. It's eye-watering.

    Now in total that is around £12bn, £10bn of which has been given out for services without tender. And instead of going to companies with known expertise, they're constantly being handed out to companies that have just been set up this year, with no tangible experience, and nearly always with a link to a Tory MP or donor. In Serco's case, Dido Harding (Conservative life peer) is head of Test and Trace despite a history of data flops, the CEO is Rupert Soames (brother of former Tory MP Nicholas Soames). Even the Government's Anti-Corruption Champion is Dido Harding's husband and a Tory MP. They've been doing it even throughout Brexit - anyone remember Grayling giving £50m of ferry contracts to a new company with no boats? They're shameless about it.

    So in short, when we should have had the ready made Apple/Google app, and saved lives as quickly as other countries did, we've instead killed thousands, ****ed up one app, gone for a second which doesn't work, and in doing so we've just been lining the pockets of Tory mates with the money that you and I put into the tax system.
     
    #49
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  10. BCFCRob

    BCFCRob Well-Known Member

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    I don't 'support' any party mate. It's not a football match, and unfortunately many people see it as this way. I've voted right across the board.

    You're clutching at straws massively there. If it's that easy, why don't you tell me one part that we're not near the bottom at (out of comparable countries)? Contact tracing, economic performance, number of deaths, number of covid cases, anything. I challenge you.

    We've performed abysmally. And I don't really care about what Labour might have done if they'd got in, it's irrelevant.
     
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  11. Angelicnumber16

    Angelicnumber16 Well-Known Member

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    All fair points Rob and at times I have found myself wondering just WTF the Government is playing at.

    But it's also really really easy to sit in opposition to the government in the House of Commons (or remotely) when there is no pressure on any of the other parties to do anything at all, other than pick holes in the strategy.
    This government has had to face unprecedented issues piled on top of one another that no government before, has had to deal with, namely

    The Pandemic itself - still largely the great unknown
    Lockdown and the aftermath and now restrictions in certain areas of the country coming back in
    Care Home Deaths
    Are the Covid tests actually trustworthy and accurate ?
    Millions of jobs in Travel, Hospitality, Sport, Entertainment/arts and many other walks of life being lost and supplying money for furloughed people that at some point the likes of you and I will have to help repay.
    Are we seeing true stats in terms of the real numbers of purely Covid caused deaths ? I've heard rumours that Care Homes can put 'Covid-19' as the cause of Death of a patient themselves and save themselves a £150 Doctors fee. It makes you wonder if that's going on
    The Economy and what the long term holds
    The fact that Wales, Scotland and now even Northern Ireland are doing their own thing in terms of lockdowns and restrictions.
    Schools/University's, and whether sending students of all ages back to education was the correct thing to do
    Brexit - Getting nearer and nearer to a No Deal
    etc
    Just saying it's easy for us or anyone not having to make these decisions to criticise
     
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    Last edited: Oct 15, 2020
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  12. BCFCRob

    BCFCRob Well-Known Member

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    Yeah I do get that, there is always an element of benefit of the doubt, there has to be. It's unprecedented. But where do you draw the line and actually hold them to account? How much worse does it have to get before people believe that maybe they're just not quite good enough for the task? Other countries have managed to do it. People hate Merkel, they hate Macron, they hate them all, but they haven't messed up as much as our lot have. That's the truth of the matter.

    This is the frustrating thing - if people applied the same accountability to the government as they did to Corbyn and Abbott then maybe they'd be up to the task. For the red side it was all, 'they're incompetent, they could never get into government, imagine what would happen' (quite rightly too by the way), but suddenly when it's the blue side, everyone goes all soft and refuses to criticise. Whether you guys are aware of it or not, it's bias. I'm guilty of it too, I must be, we all are, but I think it's a fair point.

    For me, simply, when they're messing up time after time after time, and shamelessly giving OUR money to their mates, a line has been crossed. I don't think even they know what the rules are these days they're so bloody convoluted...
     
    #52
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  13. wizered

    wizered Ol' Mucker
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    Surely, apart from ' Circuit breaker' Starmer has supported all of the government's actions, there has been some sniping from the sidelines but has has stated in parliament that he supports all of the major developments used against Covid 19 pandemic.

    Criticism yes but generally broad agreement.
     
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  14. Angelicnumber16

    Angelicnumber16 Well-Known Member

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    But also bear in mind that this is a brand new Government and the Prime Minister was also incapacitated by Covid -19 himself for a period of time. I'm not making excuses for them for everything, and there are some areas that they should have acted faster and much more intelligently on. But as I said elsewhere, when the worlds scientific experts can't even agree amongst themselves it's a daunting prospect to have to make decisions based on gut feeling or what your advisors (like the dangerous idiot Cummings) might be telling you.
    In Germany, France, Spain, the USA and many other countries there are also many thousands of people who are either demonstrating against having their liberties and jobs taken away or are just doing their own thing and not taking the advisory precautions.
     
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  15. bcfcredandwhite

    bcfcredandwhite Well-Known Member

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    My main criticism of the government is the fiasco around testing.
    We have testing centres all over the UK - with doctors and nurses ready to test - lying idle, whilst individuals who need a test are sent hundreds of miles to one in another part of the country.
    It’s a fiasco and yes I do blame the government for it. It’s SILLY.
    I suppose there is also a tiny bit of ‘politics’ in my opinion too - absolutely detest Cummings - and I fail to see why taking 6 kids to feed the ducks is BANNED because it’s unsafe, whilst 20+ grown-ups with shotguns can go and SHOOT them because it’s perfectly safe? Come on - its pandering to a class of people who keep the party funded. Nothing to do with ‘safety’. I admit that bit is political, but my testing comments aren’t.
    if we had a Labour government who said you couldn’t feed the ducks but you could attend union meeting in large numbers I’d feel exactly the same. It’s WRONG.
     
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  16. Cliftonville

    Cliftonville Well-Known Member

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    France and Italy are also G8 Countries. Belgium and Spain are Countries with higher mortality rates.

    Figures should not be viewed as tables. Take away London? The figures are different. Nuance has to be used. There are huge cultural differences between Countries and internal regions that will affect mortality rates. Cities with large transient populations in the UK are worst affected. Effect in Bristol? Students - transient and have been shifting around the Country causing a rise. Areas of the Country with high numbers of multi occupancy homes are adversely affected - Northern Cities and Towns with large immigrant populations.

    The Government is having to modify culture and behaviour. Its wishful to think everybody would adhere to guidelines and guidelines will work evenly.
     
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    Last edited: Oct 15, 2020
  17. AshtonRed

    AshtonRed Well-Known Member

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    Boris constantly over promises and under delivers . We all know it’s unprecedented and he’s going to get things wrong occasionally, but to constantly promise things and not deliver makes him look the ass that he is.
     
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  18. oneforthebristolcity

    oneforthebristolcity Well-Known Member

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    Regarding being bottom of the pile etc.......I don't believe that many Countries the size of ours with such condensed population are coming out of this with flying colours, I'm also very sceptical of all the covid death figures being scattered around either.....Most with underline major health problems before contracting Covid, .....still makes it a covid statistic.
    I also believe that yes the Government could have handled the pandemic better, through hindsight. But I stress, easy said from the onlookers after the event!
    I also believe none of the other parties would have done anything better and probably made at best equal mistakes and would have certainly made the financial state of the Country a lot worse...
    I believe with everything going on with the pandemic and coming out of the EU, Boris & co have done quite a reasonable job.....And that's my honest opinion....most won't agree, but hey ho!!
    By the way, you mentioned the Labour party, I never did!!
     
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  19. realred1952

    realred1952 Well-Known Member

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    there was an interesting comment on itv west .. there is a small laboratory in Taunton does a lot of NHS tests [ although a lot of BRI / Childrens hospital tests go to Southampton ] their machines do 1000 tests a day! takes 24 hours per batch ! They have been trying to get up to 4000 per day .. the latest state of the art machine does 24 per batch but only takes 30mins processing time … there is probably 5000+++ labs need / ordered ?x? or more ..! The company that males them is flat out …..
    you can have the best will in the world to do 400,000 tests or more a day but without the newer machines you are f...……………….

    Sir K Hindsight makes a stock phrase on supporting the .gov … however days or week later he forgot he was and is knocking it as the wrong way to go about it but never gives "what I would do" … covered it all before

    BCR&W other than the hiccup with the IT fiasco labs have their hands tied! Before the pandemic, world wide there was enough testing machines. samples could be turned around in 24 - 48hours and in most labs could do a few cases in a few hours. It is a balancing act … why do 600,000 tests a day when the capacity to get the result is only 300,000 [ metaphorical statement].
    British aero space has around 100 small engineering companies throughout the UK that do specific bits of work for them. It is 2 fold … they make missiles etc... so should all the parts be engineered in one place !! …. .. also some of the specialist machines lathes etc cost £ mega bucks … and a small company makes parts not only for them BAE but others as well … there may be only 1 or 2 of these machines in UK!
    the same with the analysing machine manufacturers … demand is now sky high … a lab doesn't need just 1 or 2 they need multiples of 10 , 10 = 5000 + tests a day, simply just divide 400,000 tests daily by quantity needed.. UK would need 750 of these !!!! so top 50+ nations.... = approaching 50,000 machines
     
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  20. realred1952

    realred1952 Well-Known Member

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    ITV west figure quoted was 59% of Covid deaths are disabled people! ALL HAVE UNDERLYING PROBLEMS ….
     
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