No it was daft Dave trying to appease the right wing of the Tory party but he totally underestimated the swell of anti EU feeling in the general public (mostly due to the influx of EU citizens). Just like May calling an election to suit the Tory party well that went well didn't it. It's basically the country being screwed by party politics.
Off Topic ****ing Europe
- Thread starter Billy Death
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I'm not at all sure how you can state that people (all the people?) didn't know what they were voting for. Are you a mind reader?
I can only claim to know my own mind.
I can only guess at what others might be thinking but I can never know.
And it's true that in any election we can never KNOW what any particular result will bring.
The best we can do is consider the problem and come up with what we think will be the best outcome.
Long term, short term, it's up to each individual.
I suspect that there would be a vast number of different reasons why individuals might have voted to leave.
I have my own reasons, I didn't want to be part of a United States of Europe was one of them.
But as I recall there was no timetable involved in the vote. Nothing about it has to be done in 'X' months.
Just a plain and simple, IN or OUT.
And I see to justification for the 'Scots Option' of continuing to hold referendums until you get the result you want.
Once you get 'your' result, the other side will want another go too.
Best of three, then five, then seven etc.
Ok, if you voted to leave for that reason, explain clearly what you mean by a United States of Europe, and what you think will happen instead...
My bet is, you can't.
Ah that would be because of Martin Schulz. It’s a pipe dream that would never occur. Nobody really wants it AND David Cameron in his negotiations before we had a referendum managed to get us out of the “ever closer union”
He also set a cap on migration too!
For the far right of the Tory party it was never enough and they’ve peddled this US of E stuff as well as everything else.
Then again. The remain camp was just as ludicrous.
Complicated request.
It depends firstly on how much you know about the US Constitution and the subsequent amendments.
To keep it simple, each State has it's own laws and rights and some control over it's own taxation.
All this though is subject to the Laws of the Country and overall jurisdiction of The President, The Senate, Congress and The Supreme Court.
When GB joined the European Union it was a Trading Organisation. Nothing more.
I voted for that.
Over the years it has morphed into a political union and all the signs are that this union will get tighter.
That's not a State I want to be part of.
The odd thing is that all over Europe, States that once existed have devolved back into their constituent parts.
Yugoslavia.
Czechoslovakia.
USSR
are off the cuff examples. Germany, though has gone the other way.
Then we have the examples from Spain and the Scots who want to devolve, (or perhaps not), and are not being allowed to.
My view is that this United States of Europe, which will contain Countries with such different National outlooks as Sweden and Bulgaria, and Holland and Romania, (make your own comparisons), have little, if anything in common. (Do you recall the fable of The Tower of Babel)?
I do not believe that this bloc is sustainable in the long run. I expect it to come apart and the fall out may well effect us, but not as much as it will effect the members States.
I certainly see no benefit in GB being part of it.
I also have instinctive reservations about the different legal system. While I know little about the intricacies I am not particularly impressed by the decisions of the European Court although I accept that the Commission may carry much of the blame.
Finally I confess to not KNOWING what will happen. However I THINK that, in the long run, we will be better off out of it.
I'll go further if it helps.
I don't mind us paying for access to The Common Market.
I don't mind a liberal immigration policy.
However I would like to be on the outside looking in rather than on the inside looking out.
Have you won your bet?
Have I explained my view clearly?
We a
That's right but I think by the time negotiations are over the EU will be in tatters.
They need our financial contribution.
We would be far stronger if thetcountry were united behind the Brexit vote. Some people who were democratically elected don't get democratic voting when it goes against their views.
Or is it all political?? If Corbyn were leading us it would no-change and the ECJ would have us in its pocket. The ECJ is the big problem with membership of the EU imo. We joined a trading union its now a hard nosed political union furthering the ends of an unelected body in Brussels.
The EU won’t be in tatters. Brexit has solidified the EU.
Our government is too weak to use our huge financial contribution as a stick to beat them with. All career politicians are useless at these sorts of negotiations. We have some amazing business minds and entrepreneurs who believed in Brexit and know how to handle negotiations. Getting a perennial failure like David Davis to spear head a bunch of limp worsted civil servants into battle was always going to **** us over.
We have too many idiots from both sides of the debate putting their tuppence worth in and derailing the stuttered negotiations. The likes of Rees Mogg and Anna Soubry need to let the government get on with it. It’ll be a Brexit in name only anyway
Sorry Bri I didn’t realise I turned into a different person it must be with just listening to people whinging over and over and over and over and over.
People have the right whinge. Both leavers and remainers. It's been a cock up from start to finish thanks to Tory in party politics. I still want to leave but to have a chance to remain until we have a government capable of delivering the Brexit we need I'd remain in a heartbeat.
I agree completely mate but that’s never going to happen so we will have to suck it and see.
Yeah, it was definitely that too (primarily) + Dave being a spineless PM all-round, and Theresa thinking she was gonna cash her chips in. They both misjudged public sentiment massively.
The thing that makes me laugh (cry) is everyone condemning the EU when our politicians couldn't run a piss-up in a brewery. They're a ****ing, corrupt shambolic pile of selfish tossers. Worse than Ellis Short & his SAFC exec board, which is going some.
I have won my bet, because in my opinion what you've written-up is not even close to the reality of the situation, it's part of the bullshit propaganda that the Leave vote were peddling. We're keeping the laws (for the foreseeable) that are largely written through the EU, and nobody has a problem with that, because by and large they work, and I can just imagine how much UK politicians would **** up the country re-writing them all. I mean, if you still believe that leaving the Eu means the NHS will get more, I'll completely despair...
What you've put is also very simplistic and reductionist in terms of how the EU operates (I appreciate this is not a high brow forum, so I'm not denouncing you for not detailing further, but I feel basically stating "all member states are different so how can anyone agree, or how can they make leave space for localised decision-making and variances" is where a lot of the leave vote stop, and don't really know what they mean.
The fact alone you see no benefit in being part of it make your views pretty much redundant. Even the most ardent leave supporters can just about comprehend some of the benefit, albeit most are selfishly wrapped up in their own lives to see the bigger picture. Farmers in this country are ****ed, which will make things interesting when we're out of Europe, in the same way someone shooting themselves in the foot might make their mundane existence interesting.
Because GDP is obviously tied to importing vs exporting, the subscription fees for access to the single market alone were worth it. Businesses are 4 times more likely to succeed when trading abroad, and virtually all businesses which trade abroad significantly increase turnover. You effectively voted to tank British business, well done.
Now, having said all that, I can understand people came to their decision, and are entitled to that decision.... But what I do not get, is how they can justify sticking to it considering what has happened since...
The housing sector, among others, is fuelled by foreign investment. This has slowed since the decision. Imagine what kind of ****-hole Monaco would be with no foreign investment. We'll be like the bloody Isle of Man, except we won't even have the dodgy off-shore **** to make us appealing, we'll just be floating Tax-robbery, not a haven.
The ****ing pound dropped to almost 1:1 with the Euro! Like a week before I was due to go to Spain, you prick (I will now hold you personally responsible forever for this!). I hedged on getting a remain vote and the pound rising, but no. Why did this happen? Uncertainly in financial markets creates unfavourable conditions, and you twats just caused a ****-tonne of uncertainty. You have no idea what will happen, nobody does.
I like metaphors, and basically the Brexit decision was a 50 year old man, with no real transferable training, savings or degree etc, leaving sensible employment and middle management, and having absolutely no idea what he was going to do... And he has 60 million children who depend on him.
In an odd sort of way we did have something similar.
The PM, Cameron, having promised a referendum was obliged to hold one, despite this only being a 'Political Promise' therefor none-binding.
He approached the Commission with a view to negotiating improved terms that would, he reasoned, I'm sure, that a Stay In vote would be ensured.
I believe that he gave himself a year to come up with these 'improved Terms'.
The commission, particularly the Gentleman from Luxemburg who Cameron had tried to stop getting the top job, (he failed of course, but made a political enemy), they were very scathing about the whole thing and called Cameron's bluff in the belief that we, The Electorate, would never vote to leave.
This ALMOST equates to your first stage.
The PM then returned after his negotiations with virtually nothing and the request that The Electorate back him and REMAIN.
On to The Referendum. STAGE TWO.
If those arrogant Bureaucrat's had been prepared to meet Mr C even a part of the way I think the result would have been different.
It wouldn't have change me but I'm sure others would have felt better about staying.
I'm just a little confused as to what you wanted.
You wrote ---explain clearly what you mean by a United States of Europe, and what you think will happen instead...
That's what I did, or tried to do.
Nothing more or less. You didn't ask for any justification, only MY view.
Its strange that when anybody wins something completely legitimately they never ask for another go only the losers do.
Agree with much of this especially the last line - too many undemocratic democratically elected ministers pulling against our hotchpotch negotiating team. The EU Team have a massive advantage and call all tunes from what I can see. We should just go it alone - we won't though too many in power/influence want to remain in. Even the CBI are funded from Europe for goodness sakesThe EU won’t be in tatters. Brexit has solidified the EU.
Our government is too weak to use our huge financial contribution as a stick to beat them with. All career politicians are useless at these sorts of negotiations. We have some amazing business minds and entrepreneurs who believed in Brexit and know how to handle negotiations. Getting a perennial failure like David Davis to spear head a bunch of limp worsted civil servants into battle was always going to **** us over.
We have too many idiots from both sides of the debate putting their tuppence worth in and derailing the stuttered negotiations. The likes of Rees Mogg and Anna Soubry need to let the government get on with it. It’ll be a Brexit in name only anyway
Strange this EU. We have Greece,which is a broken member that has gone extremely quiet, as with Italy and Portugal; all three nearly bankrupt in this lovely family. Then there is Switzerland, surrounded by the EU, whom can do what the fek they like, or Cyprus, a great place for the Russian mafia! Belgium, maybe....completely breaking down and yet it is the seat of the EU Parliament, the Euro MP's have looked out from their ivory towers, but never thought to look down
Add in Luxenburg, a tiny country, yet with so much power, sitting pretty with all the tax they get from the likes of Google and Amazon and you have the most corrupt set of scoundrels lining their own pockets and creating a gigantic spiders nest. Cmon, look into some of these Euro MP's, some have made it their life's work, including for their families and friends; its astounding when you investigate it. Lord mendleson, Lord Kinnock and Baroness Kinnock (anyone read Animal Farm, because there it is in real life) The likes of them have allowed all this to happen and they have wormed their way into the Lords as well
The one country that spoke sense, followed the rules to the letter and wanted reform. the United Kingdom, were told to Fek off and so the Nation told them to Fek off. I actually would want to be part of a democratic and fair europe, as generally the people are fantastic......the Euro MP mafioso, not so! Before answering, try googling Jean-Claude Juncker, fekin dodgy geezer, yet President of the EU. FFS!
Add in Luxenburg, a tiny country, yet with so much power, sitting pretty with all the tax they get from the likes of Google and Amazon and you have the most corrupt set of scoundrels lining their own pockets and creating a gigantic spiders nest. Cmon, look into some of these Euro MP's, some have made it their life's work, including for their families and friends; its astounding when you investigate it. Lord mendleson, Lord Kinnock and Baroness Kinnock (anyone read Animal Farm, because there it is in real life) The likes of them have allowed all this to happen and they have wormed their way into the Lords as well
The one country that spoke sense, followed the rules to the letter and wanted reform. the United Kingdom, were told to Fek off and so the Nation told them to Fek off. I actually would want to be part of a democratic and fair europe, as generally the people are fantastic......the Euro MP mafioso, not so! Before answering, try googling Jean-Claude Juncker, fekin dodgy geezer, yet President of the EU. FFS!