*Pippi Longstocking was the inventor of trendy leg warming garments and platter hair*
For the younger viewers
How long should Ron get to turn things around?
- Thread starter tomw24
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*Pippi Longstocking was the inventor of trendy leg warming garments and platter hair*
For the younger viewers
Too early to panic.
The way teams are beating each other, you might not even need to hit 40 points to stay up, this season.
We've played 17, leaving another 21 to play. I think Ron will turn it around, well enough, to achieve at least 6 more wins and a few draws. Might not satisfy those that think we should be challenging for the title, but at this moment I would settle for that.
Given our lack of goals, am I right in thinking that we don't have a designated coach for our strikers/attacking midfielders?
I think we need another head to look at how we attack teams. We have Ron to coach the defence (needs to up his game there) and Dave Watson the goalkeepers, and at this level I think we could use someone who specialises in breaking teams down and converting chances.
For those saying we only played well for the first half of last season, can you stop saying the loss of Schneiderlin and Clyne has weakened the team this season, because by your own comments, we were not playing that well for the second half of last season, when they were still here.
The way teams are beating each other, you might not even need to hit 40 points to stay up, this season.
We've played 17, leaving another 21 to play. I think Ron will turn it around, well enough, to achieve at least 6 more wins and a few draws. Might not satisfy those that think we should be challenging for the title, but at this moment I would settle for that.
Given our lack of goals, am I right in thinking that we don't have a designated coach for our strikers/attacking midfielders?
I think we need another head to look at how we attack teams. We have Ron to coach the defence (needs to up his game there) and Dave Watson the goalkeepers, and at this level I think we could use someone who specialises in breaking teams down and converting chances.
For those saying we only played well for the first half of last season, can you stop saying the loss of Schneiderlin and Clyne has weakened the team this season, because by your own comments, we were not playing that well for the second half of last season, when they were still here.
But I posted that a couple of days back. Have you only just read it?
Tiss is clearly reading your posts and taking tips Fats!
Won't be the first time I've taught him ....
Funny that the run is almost identical timing.
It obviously wasn't Hull...
"I can't remember which one it was" and "I think" should make it obvious I didn't know for sure and don't remember
Someone might remember, but I doubt they'll remember the specific game. Maybe I never posted here that particular day, I thought I did. I remember I was really pissed off with Wanyama at the time regardless.
He means the game when he was taken off at half time by Pochettino and replaced by Cork......I think.
Whilst we do need a striker our problem is the central trio of DM,DM and AM. The DM pairings are not working at all and that is having it's effect on the AM position. It also isn't helping that Davis is having to play wherever the gap is this week. HE is still our best option in that AM role and we need to stop pulling him back to DM.
The fact that our DMs aren't on top form is hindering our whole game. Teams are running through our midfield very very easily.
As for the Wanyama stats. Is there a stat for how many times he has been in the wrong place? or how many shots he has had? He will have lots of tackles. He is good at that but he is not doing what he did last season. He is now trying to be box to box which isn't him at all. HE always seems to be far too close to our defenders and often when a team crosses a ball in it is Christmas for them because we have 5 in the box and we head it out to an empty vacuum outside the box where our DMs should be.
I will move on from the DM argument. I think it's the defence personally, but we'll have to agree to disagree. Now to facts rather than opinions with Ramirez vs Lallana in the Premier League continued. Sorry, I was too tempted to do it. I hadn't got round to comparing their end product per minute I don't think. To add even more spice to it I'll add Tadic to the equation. I think it's only fair (to start with anyway) to Ramirez and Lallana to not count Tadic's 2 penalties in this personally, so I won't (I do eventually).
In the PL Ramirez has been directly involved in a goal every 201.4 minutes (scored the goal himself or directly assisted). Lallana he has been directly involved in a goal every 250.8 mins.
Tadic has been directly involved in a goal every 214.4 minutes. But one mustn't forget that he was directly involved in several goals against Sunderland. Without that freak 8-0 game and the two penalties he's down at being directly involved in a goal every 284.18 minutes. Interestingly with the two penalties (and the goals he was involved in against Sunderland).. minus one for missing a pen in the loss vs Burnley which I think is fair.. Tadic is directly contributing a goal every 201 mins in the PL compared to Ramirez' 201.4.
Specifically for Saints in the PL Ramirez has been directly involved in a goal every 172.1 minutes. Lallana was directly involved in a goal every 242.9 minutes, despite having the luxury of long runs in the side as a starter and the confidence gained from getting the captaincy. Tadic is contributing every 189.18 mins despite the luxury of being the penalty taker and scoring 2 from the spot (this is without knocking one off for the Burnley miss, a game we lost 1-0).
I will add that Ramirez has made 68 Premier League appearances and 34 starts in the PL in total for anyone interested. But has only made 2 premier league appearances and played 34 minutes in total under Koeman in the league.
All I can do is continue to despair at Koeman's treatment of Ramirez since June 2014 considering his end product. Two appearances in the PL. 34 minutes played, one assist. Surely a player with such end product has to at least have been getting plenty of chances from the bench. This season and last. There is absolutely no doubt for me that Koeman will cost us several points this season, and did last season, with his handling of Ramirez.
For those interested Mane has been directly involved in a goal every 163.9 minutes for Saints. Every 172.45 minutes for Rodriguez. Lambert was involved in a goal directly every 141.74 minutes for Saints in the PL (a great return, although helped by pens). Every 211.18 mins for Pelle. And remarkably Long is on a direct contribution every 168.42 minutes, suggesting he should be getting more chances as a starter. Long can be frustrating at times with his touch, and control of the football, but the stats really do support him strongly.
In conclusion. For Saints:
Player Name - Directly involved in a goal (via scoring the goal or directly assisting) per X minutes. Including penalties.
Lambert - 141.74
Mane - 163.9
Long - 168.42
Ramirez - 172.1
Rodriguez - 172.45
Tadic - 189.18
Pelle - 211.18
Lallana - 242.9
This does interest me and doesn't take long for me. I'm quick with numbers and enjoy this type of thing (although I'm well aware that some don't). Yes, it's "just" direct end product being compared. But it's extremely, extremely, important for an attacking player.
In the PL Ramirez has been directly involved in a goal every 201.4 minutes (scored the goal himself or directly assisted). Lallana he has been directly involved in a goal every 250.8 mins.
Tadic has been directly involved in a goal every 214.4 minutes. But one mustn't forget that he was directly involved in several goals against Sunderland. Without that freak 8-0 game and the two penalties he's down at being directly involved in a goal every 284.18 minutes. Interestingly with the two penalties (and the goals he was involved in against Sunderland).. minus one for missing a pen in the loss vs Burnley which I think is fair.. Tadic is directly contributing a goal every 201 mins in the PL compared to Ramirez' 201.4.
Specifically for Saints in the PL Ramirez has been directly involved in a goal every 172.1 minutes. Lallana was directly involved in a goal every 242.9 minutes, despite having the luxury of long runs in the side as a starter and the confidence gained from getting the captaincy. Tadic is contributing every 189.18 mins despite the luxury of being the penalty taker and scoring 2 from the spot (this is without knocking one off for the Burnley miss, a game we lost 1-0).
I will add that Ramirez has made 68 Premier League appearances and 34 starts in the PL in total for anyone interested. But has only made 2 premier league appearances and played 34 minutes in total under Koeman in the league.
All I can do is continue to despair at Koeman's treatment of Ramirez since June 2014 considering his end product. Two appearances in the PL. 34 minutes played, one assist. Surely a player with such end product has to at least have been getting plenty of chances from the bench. This season and last. There is absolutely no doubt for me that Koeman will cost us several points this season, and did last season, with his handling of Ramirez.
For those interested Mane has been directly involved in a goal every 163.9 minutes for Saints. Every 172.45 minutes for Rodriguez. Lambert was involved in a goal directly every 141.74 minutes for Saints in the PL (a great return, although helped by pens). Every 211.18 mins for Pelle. And remarkably Long is on a direct contribution every 168.42 minutes, suggesting he should be getting more chances as a starter. Long can be frustrating at times with his touch, and control of the football, but the stats really do support him strongly.
In conclusion. For Saints:
Player Name - Directly involved in a goal (via scoring the goal or directly assisting) per X minutes. Including penalties.
Lambert - 141.74
Mane - 163.9
Long - 168.42
Ramirez - 172.1
Rodriguez - 172.45
Tadic - 189.18
Pelle - 211.18
Lallana - 242.9
This does interest me and doesn't take long for me. I'm quick with numbers and enjoy this type of thing (although I'm well aware that some don't). Yes, it's "just" direct end product being compared. But it's extremely, extremely, important for an attacking player.
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Lies, damn lies and statistics.
Les Reed is the main man for our recruitment policy.
Reed Recruitment are a well known accountancy recruitment company.
The penny has dropped for me now and we'll be fine when we just bring in a numbers man next time.
Les Reed is the main man for our recruitment policy.
Reed Recruitment are a well known accountancy recruitment company.
The penny has dropped for me now and we'll be fine when we just bring in a numbers man next time.
Interesting stuff Tintin. Do you work with numbers as a profession?
To me though, although that is interesting, all it really does for me is to confirm that statistics don't tell the whole story.
Answer to Tom's question is, at least as long as it takes to turn it around.
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Even RK agrees there is something wrong. We all may have differing opinions as to how it can be rectified. RK must be given a reasonable time to sort it out. That is what he is paid for. Apart from the last 5/6 weeks or so, he has done very well with the players he has. I think in the main we all will agree the new players have not hit the ground running. A few are proving better than others it is true but no one is really catching the limelight.
So it is time for Ron to show what he is made of. Sadly I think the days of some of our stalwart players may be numbered simply because they too are beginning to fade and new ideas are needed.The end of January should be a minimum for RK to turn things around early February the latest. If things haven't drastically improved by then big decisions will need to be made as much as I hate to say it.
The Saints board do have a stake in how it pans out too, with decisions on how to help him. Sadly for me that is our biggest weakness at the moment I feel. As others have said all the right noises but not necessary the right action or forethought. Just my opinion for what its worth!!
So it is time for Ron to show what he is made of. Sadly I think the days of some of our stalwart players may be numbered simply because they too are beginning to fade and new ideas are needed.The end of January should be a minimum for RK to turn things around early February the latest. If things haven't drastically improved by then big decisions will need to be made as much as I hate to say it.
The Saints board do have a stake in how it pans out too, with decisions on how to help him. Sadly for me that is our biggest weakness at the moment I feel. As others have said all the right noises but not necessary the right action or forethought. Just my opinion for what its worth!!
You're forgetting he did a header once, against Liverpool, when the ball came to where he was standing. He's a genius.
Yes, I think end product statistics for an attacker are very important personally.
That was in no way an easy assist. I suggest you check the goal out again. I wasn't aware that managers tended to ditch a player completely in a season after he played 10 minutes and assisted a goal.
No one has called him a genius. Throwing your toys out the pram at the end product stats it seems. Lallana is the most over rated player to ever put on a Saints shirt, garbage end product and all the Liverpool fans think he is ****. Yet you're throwing your toys out the pram that I want Ramirez to get chances and think he has been treated poorly
Hey, I agree with you on Ramirez, as you know. The stats you're presenting indicate that Long is more effective than Pelle though, and I struggle to link that up wit what I see with my eyes though. That's my point.
The mentioned teams there are all relative form teams! I think we'd lose to all three personally.
I think it's because Long is a frustrating player to watch. He has great pace, great work rate, good in the air...but his touch is pretty poor, he's poor at running with the ball.That's always frustrated me massively. But one can't hide from his end product (even I can't anymore) and we need to remember that Pelle is slow too. Pelle prevents us from countering fast and hinders Mane's counter attack threat.
Long over Pelle even gives us the option to change system to 4-4-2, which Leicester and Watford have been very effective with this season. Long and Mane up top with their pace. Palace have been playing it recently too I believe.
Not having a pop at you Tintin (honest) but this is spectacularly dull,football is about watching and getting exited.For all the irrelevant stats Lallana (now downgraded to Twatbeard) entertained us in the main,unfortunately for whatever reason Gaston failed to do that.
I am a Gaston fan, but I agree. You just can't talk to TinTin. If your response doesn't fit his agenda he either ignores you, calls you a clown or says you are throwing your toys out the pram, as he has just above with Pelletron.
The post about the stats suggests that is all there needs to be. Long is a great favourite because he is such a trier normally, however despite his satistics, he's not good enough and Despite paying £12m for him Ron hardly picks him as a starter. This tells me something.
We'll now read every day that Long must start as his stats are so good.
Statistics are part of a package of things that's help a manager assess players and make a team selection. They can also be dangerous when used in isolation. I've never seen a stat that tells me how many times a player turns his back when the ball goes out for a goal kick or throw-in and consequently has left a player free somewhere (as Memphis did for norwich's first goal v united), they never tell you if a player didn't mark the right opponent or be in the correct position during a phase of play. They don't tell you how well a player is getting on with his team-mates, or if he played a pass to a team mate but failed to see another team mate in a better position. They may tell you how may headers a player won, but not where the ball went after the header. They don't tell you which tema mate a player's game is better suited to or who plays well together on the pitch.
The manager has to use what he sees and his instinct too.
Stats are useful, but dangerous.