Hillsborough

[MackemX]

What I'm asking people to consider is that the 'last minute surge', when the gate opened, can't be the only cause.

If it was, the deaths would be at the front of the walkway from the tunnel when 'the unstoppable tide of people surged in' .

Instead the deaths occurred all along the front of the terraces.

That must mean it was people behind them gradually pushing down and increasing the pressure.

You can clearly see that was the case well before the gate was opened.

The red highlighted text is wrong surely? I've highlighted the red bit below in my huge post to answer this as to why I think it's possibly wrong and the rest is just general reply.

The influx of fans coming in at the back will have added greatly to the force going forward on everyone. It probably got that tight you simply had to go with the flow, as you will no doubt have experienced yourself. The pushing starts at the back and then build up in force the further down you go.

Before the gates were opened there will have been a steady flow coming through the tunnel with the 'pressure' building up slowly but it was clear by then that the pens were quite crowded and access should have been blocked and fans diverted to the sides. You can see the diagonal gap that allowed some of the fans pressure to collapse the 2 sections of the bottom barrier and it was estimated to be 800-900kg per metre. It also seems that a barrier was removed in 1986 which won't have helped. Not just the ones directly in front as think of sand falling through a gap, the force will also go to the sides

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Here's one fan who left pen 3 to go into pen 4 yet still died.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-merseyside-34579706

He was seen in pictures at 14:53 BST with other Liverpool fans outside the turnstiles at the Leppings Lane end.

No more than three minutes later he was inside pen three, one of the fenced terrace enclosures.

He was also identified in neighbouring pen four at 15:08, two minutes after a senior police officer had stopped the match.


Here's another who was told to go back down the tunnel and died!

https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2015/jul/14/hillsborough-victim-returned-to-pen-inquest

Peter Burkett, who was 24 at the time and worked at the Royal Life Insurance company, met a friend, Anthony Turner, in the tunnel leading to the central pens, and told him he was getting out because it was “murder in there”.

Turner, giving evidence at the inquest, said Burkett told him he had already been separated from his friend Jonathon Owens because the overcrowding was so bad. They turned around, went back out of the tunnel, and on the concourse they asked a man wearing a fluorescent green steward’s jacket if there was a less crowded part of the terrace where they could watch the match.

“He pointed back down the tunnel and said: ‘Just go in that way,’” Turner said.

He said they went back into the tunnel as directed, after the match had started at 3pm, and once inside pen 3 of the terrace they were trapped and immediately separated by the size and movement of the crowd.

He said Burkett looked back, gave a half smile, shrugged as if he was going with the flow of the crowd, and said: “See you later.”

Footage of pen 3, filmed by BBC cameras there to cover the FA Cup semi-final between Liverpool and Nottingham Forest, showed Burkett among a pile of people trapped in the crush at the front of the pen at 3.19pm.

You say you can clearly see the crushing starting before the gate opens but I don't see it, unless you've seen other videos of it? Look at the video in the link below at video time 7:09ish and you can see the fan getting ejected by the copper at 2:48pm that leads to a few 100 fans getting in before the police horse blocks the gate and it's closed again. Recall that even John Motson states the pens looked stowed out at 2:46pm yet the sides have plenty space so these few 100 fans getting in at 2:48pm will have added to pens 3 & 4.

The video seems to be real time an further on in the video at 10:15 in and later at 10:50ish (so possibly around 2:51pm) you can clearly see the people at the front don't seem to be squashed at all and there even seems to be some space. This is even after those fans got in when the fan got hoyed out at 2:48pm. The dividing line between pens 3 and 4 at the tunnel entrance don't seem to have people flooding in that much either.

This probably explains how even some who came in at 2:52pm when gate C was opened ended up down the front, the lass who lost 2 of her companions for example.

Aye the pens now looks packed out with crowd surging but still those at the front aren't yet in distress. The video cuts to the opening of Gate C again at 2:52pm (if you keep watching the video). So surely letting in 2,000ish (their estimates) fans to come would mean more coming down the tunnel at once rather than a trickle from the turnstiles who previously could turn around. Then 3 minutes after gate C was opened, so around 14:55pm, (13:58 in the video) you can see a big surge in pen 4 that starts at the back and ripples down to the front. There's now going to be 100's trying to get in as even the tunnel could hold a canny few I bet. I'm not saying it did happen but I could understand that all those fans in the tunnel blindly pushing forward once the game kicked off would pass the force into the pens somehow.

https://www.liverpoolecho.co.uk/news/liverpool-news/hillsborough-pen-nearly-twice-safe-7324946

Another timeline in image below and a link about the barrier. The surge (like any match) that broke the barrier happened at 3:03pm. Surely this crushing effect of people suddenly surging forward due to the barrier failure would have created a temporary space only for it to be filled by those many fans behind? Therefore everyone just ended up squashed tightly at the front of pen 3 and no room to recover as the domino effect would have spilled sideways as 100's from behind fell forward? This all happened is so little time as even as late as 2:52pm it seems all is OK at the front and then the gate was opened. If the barrier didn't collapse would as many have died given the protection it gave to those in front of it? I know more fans died in pen 3 than pen 4 but how many was it? The various photos I've seen of fans up against the fence are all in pen 3 as you can see by the advertising hoardings at the back.

https://www.liverpoolecho.co.uk/new...rough-inquests-partial-collapse-crush-7334350

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Here's someone's account of Forest v Celtic in the 1983 UEFA Cup due to pens but he says the fans could escape easier as they weren't boxed in.

http://www.thecelticwiki.com/page/I was there...Nottingham Forest v Celtic, UEFA Cup 3rd rnd, 1st leg, 23 Nov 1983

Obviously everything I'm saying is based on what I've seen/heard over the years but I don't have access to all the videos nor able to watch it all in sync and that's it from me anyway. The sad truth is, this could have been any teams fans, including us if it didn't happen in 1989 and it could have happened in 1981 if not sooner, who knows. It's just a shame they didn't realise just how full pens 3 & 4 were and blocked off the tunnel before opening the gates like they had the year before for the same fixture between the teams and diverted fans to the sides.

 

[Smug in Boots]

The red highlighted text is wrong surely? I've highlighted the red bit below in my huge post to answer this as to why I think it's possibly wrong and the rest is just general reply.

The influx of fans coming in at the back will have added greatly to the force going forward on everyone. It probably got that tight you simply had to go with the flow, as you will no doubt have experienced yourself. The pushing starts at the back and then build up in force the further down you go.

Before the gates were opened there will have been a steady flow coming through the tunnel with the 'pressure' building up slowly but it was clear by then that the pens were quite crowded and access should have been blocked and fans diverted to the sides. You can see the diagonal gap that allowed some of the fans pressure to collapse the 2 sections of the bottom barrier and it was estimated to be 800-900kg per metre. It also seems that a barrier was removed in 1986 which won't have helped. Not just the ones directly in front as think of sand falling through a gap, the force will also go to the sides

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Here's one fan who left pen 3 to go into pen 4 yet still died.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-merseyside-34579706

He was seen in pictures at 14:53 BST with other Liverpool fans outside the turnstiles at the Leppings Lane end.

No more than three minutes later he was inside pen three, one of the fenced terrace enclosures.

He was also identified in neighbouring pen four at 15:08, two minutes after a senior police officer had stopped the match.


Here's another who was told to go back down the tunnel and died!

https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2015/jul/14/hillsborough-victim-returned-to-pen-inquest

Peter Burkett, who was 24 at the time and worked at the Royal Life Insurance company, met a friend, Anthony Turner, in the tunnel leading to the central pens, and told him he was getting out because it was “murder in there”.

Turner, giving evidence at the inquest, said Burkett told him he had already been separated from his friend Jonathon Owens because the overcrowding was so bad. They turned around, went back out of the tunnel, and on the concourse they asked a man wearing a fluorescent green steward’s jacket if there was a less crowded part of the terrace where they could watch the match.

“He pointed back down the tunnel and said: ‘Just go in that way,’” Turner said.

He said they went back into the tunnel as directed, after the match had started at 3pm, and once inside pen 3 of the terrace they were trapped and immediately separated by the size and movement of the crowd.

He said Burkett looked back, gave a half smile, shrugged as if he was going with the flow of the crowd, and said: “See you later.”

Footage of pen 3, filmed by BBC cameras there to cover the FA Cup semi-final between Liverpool and Nottingham Forest, showed Burkett among a pile of people trapped in the crush at the front of the pen at 3.19pm.

You say you can clearly see the crushing starting before the gate opens but I don't see it, unless you've seen other videos of it? Look at the video in the link below at video time 7:09ish and you can see the fan getting ejected by the copper at 2:48pm that leads to a few 100 fans getting in before the police horse blocks the gate and it's closed again. Recall that even John Motson states the pens looked stowed out at 2:46pm yet the sides have plenty space so these few 100 fans getting in at 2:48pm will have added to pens 3 & 4.

The video seems to be real time an further on in the video at 10:15 in and 10:50ish (so possibly around 2:51pm) you can clearly see the people at the front don't seem to be squashed at all even after those fans got in when the fan got hoyed out at 2:48pm. The dividing line between pens 3 and 4 at the tunnel entrance don't seem to have people flooding in that much either.

The pens now looks packed out with crowd surging but still those at the front aren't yet in distress. The video cuts to the opening of Gate C again at 2:52pm (if you keep watching the video). So surely letting in 2,000ish (their estimates) fans to come in would mean more coming down the tunnel at once rather than a trickle from the turnstiles who previously could turn around. Then 3 minutes after gate C was opened, so around 14:55pm, (13:58 in the video) you can see a big surge in pen 4 that starts at the back and ripples down to the front.

https://www.liverpoolecho.co.uk/news/liverpool-news/hillsborough-pen-nearly-twice-safe-7324946

Another timeline in image below and a link about the barrier. The surge (like any match) that broke the barrier happened at 3:03pm. Surely this crushing effect of people suddenly surging forward due to the barrier failure would have created a temporary space only for it to be filled by those many fans behind? Therefore everyone just ended up squashed tightly at the front of pen 3 and no room to recover as the domino effect would have spilled sideways as 100's from behind fell forward? This all happened is so little time as even as late as 2:52pm it seems all is OK at the front and then the gate was opened. If the barrier didn't collapse would as many have died given the protection it gave to those in front of it? I know more fans died in pen 3 than pen 4 but how many was it? The various photos I've seen of fans up against the fence are all in pen 3 as you can see by the advertising hoardings at the back.

https://www.liverpoolecho.co.uk/new...rough-inquests-partial-collapse-crush-7334350

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Here's someone's account of Forest v Celtic in the 1983 UEFA Cup due to pens but he says the fans could escape easier as they weren't boxed in.

http://www.thecelticwiki.com/page/I was there...Nottingham Forest v Celtic, UEFA Cup 3rd rnd, 1st leg, 23 Nov 1983

Obviously everything I'm saying is based on what I've seen/heard over the years but I don't have access to all the videos nor able to watch it all in sync and that's it from me anyway. The sad truth is, this could have been any teams fans, including us if it didn't happen in 1989 and it could have happened in 1981 if not sooner, who knows. It's just a shame they didn't realise just how full pens 3 & 4 were and blocked off the tunnel before opening the gates like they had the year before for the same fixture between the teams and diverted fans to the sides.

Thanks for that reply mate.

I only have my phone so am struggling to look at your videos or find the one's where you can see the new arrivals continually nudging people down the terraces. I'll have a go tomorrow when I have an hour with my laptop.

I've looked at your link about the people who went down the tunnel and back into the pens.

If they were able to walk out and back in it doesn't suggest the tunnel was the unstoppable tide of people that is often suggested.

 

[MackemX]

Sorry mate, you are wrong!

Moving sideways wasn't an option, as the pens, constructed in 1985, were encased by 6ft high spiked fencing, as this video clearly shows, from 19.34 onwards, where your specific point is rebuffed.

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Also, I thought the part from 54' onwards to be where the cover up began,. where police officers were told not to put anything in their pocket books, by a Chief Inspector, because what had happened would be covered in the Disaster Log.

Then again at 30.00 I found particularly interesting, with a former police officer showing proof of the way in which his statement (about the events) had been changed.

I watched it again last night and it's certainly an eye opener as are a few other videos/websites etc! Though I think fans could get through into the side pens but they had to get right to the back of the pen where there was a gate opening. Obviously the fans at the front couldn't move anywhere but again with hindsight, why not have the openings also at the front where crushing is more likely to occur for pressure relief?

Thanks for that reply mate.

I only have my phone so am struggling to look at your videos or find the one's where you can see the new arrivals continually nudging people down the terraces. I'll have a go tomorrow when I have an hour with my laptop.

I've looked at your link about the people who went down the tunnel and back into the pens.

If they were able to walk out and back in it doesn't suggest the tunnel was the unstoppable tide of people that is often suggested.

We all agree they opened gate C the 2nd time at 2:52pm to let them the supporters in. For me at this time all seemed OK at the front (that long video shows this) but then opened gates A & B later. The video is halfway down the page under Watch: Hillsborough inquests shown 32-minute video presentation of how disaster developed

https://www.liverpoolecho.co.uk/news/liverpool-news/hillsborough-pen-nearly-twice-safe-7324946

Some obvservations

13:59 video time (2:55pm) A bloke in sheepskin and hat is walking past the fans and doesn't seem to be in any hurry and talks to a bloke bending down (cameraman). Surely if those at the front were getting crushed they'd both be react to it, especially the bloke already there bending down?

14:42 video time (minutes before kick off) you see pen 3 and you can see fans towards top left coming in and then the body of pen 3 moves. Now think back to the way the force of fans would go due to barrier placement. After you see this surge it then shows

15:44 VT (2:57pm) Closing of gate C but still may fans seem to be streaming towards the tunnel.

16:41 VT (2:58pm) Opening of gates A & B lets even more fans in and still a steady stream heading to the tunnel.

17:39 VT (2.59pm Opening of Gate C again and stream of people heading to tunnel seems to increase again.

It's harder to see what exactly went on with limited videos and angles but I'm presuming the powers that be have all the video and synced it all up so they could see exactly what was going on.

I'm not saying there aren't videos that you mention @Smug in Boots and I would watch come videos if you find them. You have a point about the lads getting out the tunnel but it doesn't mention what time. Looking again at the width of the tunnel, maybe if you did keep yourself up against the wall you find a way out even against the influx of supporters. It doesn't say what time they came out but given they shut gate C at 2:58pm, would this have stemmed the flow of fans temporarily and just enough for some to get back out, have words with a steward and then go back in just after 3pm?

For me, given the video showing the fans at the front not showing any signs of distress up until 2:52pm then it does seem as if the serious problems started after gate C was opened. Given the supposed 'safe' capacity of pen 3 was summit in the 600's yet they estimated over 1400 were in there then it's obvious the surely the 100's who were let in after gate C had a big effect on those already in there is one way or another as surely it was pushing 1,000 by then? If they hadn't come in through the tunnel then I don't think the crushing would have been as bad given the video showing the fans in the seconds before the opening of Gate C seemed to look fine at the front.

I also don't think it was 100's of fans in the tunnel/just coming in all pushing rather a constant stream and buildup but in a very short time. The constant stream of fans coming in (for example as shown in at 14:42 VT in link above) meant that eventually a surge in pen 3 breaks the barrier. Wasn't it Beardsley's shot off the bar that caused the surge around 3:04pm and that's when barrier broke? I'm sure someone in the BBC documentary mentions this.

Anyway that's it for me as I've seen and said enough

 

[Ivan Dobsky]

https://www.independent.co.uk/sport...-duckenfield-justice-tony-evans-a9225186.html

 

[RichB]

Thanks for that reply mate.

I only have my phone so am struggling to look at your videos or find the one's where you can see the new arrivals continually nudging people down the terraces. I'll have a go tomorrow when I have an hour with my laptop.

I've looked at your link about the people who went down the tunnel and back into the pens.

If they were able to walk out and back in it doesn't suggest the tunnel was the unstoppable tide of people that is often suggested.

In my eyes this makes the police more culpable

I can get my head round the fact that in a moment of panic an inexperienced commander orders a gate to be opened for a crush outside and this leads to a surge that causes a crush

Its pretty clear from what I have seen the central area was full for a prolonged time before the gate was opened. The police should have known this and reacted - they didnt. Those people that were let in were the icing on the cake that turned a critical situation into a tragedy

My feeling is the police were there to control a crowd which is generally a mixed bunch of people drunk, sober, angry and calm and they were not able to do this/ There is no doubt in my mind they police reaction to this situation was inadequate but to reach a level of criminal responsibility is way harder to achieve.

What hasnt been tested and in my eyes is the biggest tragedy is the cover up from the authorities and government and the trash rags after the event. It has coloured the views of opposing supporters that carries on to this day.

I know many North East folk are hugely affected by the police approach to the miners strike and I dont think you can look at Hillsborough in isolation and lay blame on Liverpool fans - they behaved as any football crowd would have in those circumstances. They were let down by the police presence that day

 

[Smug in Boots]

In my eyes this makes the police more culpable

I can get my head round the fact that in a moment of panic an inexperienced commander orders a gate to be opened for a crush outside and this leads to a surge that causes a crush

Its pretty clear from what I have seen the central area was full for a prolonged time before the gate was opened. The police should have known this and reacted - they didnt. Those people that were let in were the icing on the cake that turned a critical situation into a tragedy

My feeling is the police were there to control a crowd which is generally a mixed bunch of people drunk, sober, angry and calm and they were not able to do this/ There is no doubt in my mind they police reaction to this situation was inadequate but to reach a level of criminal responsibility is way harder to achieve.

What hasnt been tested and in my eyes is the biggest tragedy is the cover up from the authorities and government and the trash rags after the event. It has coloured the views of opposing supporters that carries on to this day.

I know many North East folk are hugely affected by the police approach to the miners strike and I dont think you can look at Hillsborough in isolation and lay blame on Liverpool fans - they behaved as any football crowd would have in those circumstances. They were let down by the police presence that day

"I dont think you can look at Hillsborough in isolation and lay blame on Liverpool fans - they behaved as any football crowd would have in those circumstances."

I would never solely blame the Liverpool supporters but I do believe some of them have reason to look back with a little regret.

And, from personal experience, I can honestly say I don't believe all supporters would've behaved in exactly the same way.

Of course the police handled the situation badly ...

... but I can't go along with this theory that 'the police are there to handle whatever's thrown at them'.

The public are adults who have to take some kind of responsibility for their actions, it's a joint enterprise imo.

Some Liverpool supporters, at that time, had a 'we'll do what we want' attitude and imo that contributed to the existing problems of the stadium design, allocation, police tactics, etc.

The late arrival of many supporters, breakdown of the queues, people climbing the walls, etc definitely had an effect. Children were being crushed at the turnstiles, people were becoming angry and the situation was rapidly deteriorating.

Up until the point the gate was opened the police had done little wrong. It's very easy, in hindsight, to say it was a mistake to open the gate. But, in theory, there was enough room for all of the people outside. The mistake wasn't opening the gate.

 

[Smug in Boots]

https://www.independent.co.uk/sport...-duckenfield-justice-tony-evans-a9225186.html

A very poor article.

 

[Ivan Dobsky]

"I dont think you can look at Hillsborough in isolation and lay blame on Liverpool fans - they behaved as any football crowd would have in those circumstances."

I would never solely blame the Liverpool supporters but I do believe some of them have reason to look back with a little regret.

And, from personal experience, I can honestly say I don't believe all supporters would've behaved in exactly the same way.

Of course the police handled the situation badly ...

... but I can't go along with this theory that 'the police are there to handle whatever's thrown at them'.

The public are adults who have to take some kind of responsibility for their actions, it's a joint enterprise imo.

Some Liverpool supporters, at that time, had a 'we'll do what we want' attitude and imo that contributed to the existing problems of the stadium design, allocation, police tactics, etc.

The late arrival of many supporters, breakdown of the queues, people climbing the walls, etc definitely had an effect. Children were being crushed at the turnstiles, people were becoming angry and the situation was rapidly deteriorating.

Up until the point the gate was opened the police had done little wrong. It's very easy, in hindsight, to say it was a mistake to open the gate. But, in theory, there was enough room for all of the people outside. The mistake wasn't opening the gate.

A very poor post.

 

[Smug in Boots]

Hahahahaha!!!!! Outside of Merseyside, the only 'sympathy' Liverpool fans have ever 'enjoyed' has been, in England anyway, from Newcastle. The rest of you sucked the Establishment's cock and lapped up every word that Mackenzie and Sun fed you. Dickhead.

 

[Smug in Boots]

There's something fundamental that's always missed when people talk about this. It's always claimed/assumed that an unstoppable mass of Liverpool supporters were diverted into the entrance to the terraces, swept to the front and crushed by those following on.

That's absolute nonsense.

If it were true the dead would've been directly in front of the gangways whereas, in reality, they were spread across the front of the terraces. How could the surge of people possible push people down the terraces ... it's physically impossible.

As someone who's stood on endless dodgy terraces, including the Leppings Lane, over fifty years I know how it happened. I was at York, Cardiff, Villa, etc, when Sunderland fans could've been involved in a fatal crush. I wouldn't have been totally blameless and neither were the Liverpool fans on that terrible day.

 

[rowley]

"I dont think you can look at Hillsborough in isolation and lay blame on Liverpool fans - they behaved as any football crowd would have in those circumstances."

I would never solely blame the Liverpool supporters but I do believe some of them have reason to look back with a little regret.

And, from personal experience, I can honestly say I don't believe all supporters would've behaved in exactly the same way.

Of course the police handled the situation badly ...

... but I can't go along with this theory that 'the police are there to handle whatever's thrown at them'.

The public are adults who have to take some kind of responsibility for their actions, it's a joint enterprise imo.

Some Liverpool supporters, at that time, had a 'we'll do what we want' attitude and imo that contributed to the existing problems of the stadium design, allocation, police tactics, etc.

The late arrival of many supporters, breakdown of the queues, people climbing the walls, etc definitely had an effect. Children were being crushed at the turnstiles, people were becoming angry and the situation was rapidly deteriorating.

Up until the point the gate was opened the police had done little wrong. It's very easy, in hindsight, to say it was a mistake to open the gate. But, in theory, there was enough room for all of the people outside. The mistake wasn't opening the gate.

Yes, there really were many facets to this disaster.

The police opening the gates was one of them. But why they opened the gates is another thing. We all, of an age anyway, know it was to alleviate crowd pressure, but the thing is that it was nowhere near the first time police at football grounds had done this.

This had become a method of crowd control; feeling it was better to have fans inside rather than outside and having to control them there. Over some years some supporters, and it was those supporters of the big clubs who often featured in semi finals and so on , assumed this and would turn up without tickets. It had happened elsewhere, but Liverpool being placed in that stand was a grave error, despite it being easier for traffic etc. The terrace there was very small and could not cope with the extra fans, as the Penistone would have. If there were, as is likely and as had also happened elsewhere, fans turning up without tickets, and some maybe with a drink inside them, then that is for them to share with their conscience and with God.

Then there are the fences. These would never have been erected had a minority of fans at some clubs not invaded pitches with bad intent and worse. No fences, far fewer, possibly no fatalities. So every fan who ran on a pitch to look for a fight, or try and stop a game, has a small part of responsibility.

What the police can bever be forgiven for is the systematic cover up and attempts to deploy revisionist versions of events. They have never recovered from that really, and this has also led to all the other multiple factors not being faced up to.

Horrible thing all round. I just hope those who didn't get home that might are resting in peace.

 

[FellTop]

A tragedy that I remember as if it were yesterday. I can still see the tv pictures clearly, and remember how sick and tearful I felt. I have seen the documentaries and read the books, they often make me cry, and always just make me terribly sad. I can also remember how Kenny Dalglish seemed to lead the footballing world in the weeks that followed. I still dont really know how a community or club can ever really come to terms with it, I doubt you ever can. Has any event shaped our game as much? I know the next time I stood on the terraces, with my younger brother, I never let him out of my sight, and I always made sure they were in front of me where I assumed I could protect them.

 

[E.T. Fairfax]

A disaster waiting to happen. Like many man made disasters we learnt from it so that it wont happen again. Unfortunately it took 97 innocent deaths for that to happen. It was a perfect storm of poor decision making and poor stadium design. I find it hard to blame the police because they opened the gates in order to save lives outside the stadium. It was done in good faith. The policeman in charge had no football crowd control experience at all. However it was a mistake and they should have accepted it. Covering it up and passing the blame onto the fans was outrageous. If they held their hands up from the beginning then the families of those who died might have been able to live their lives in slightly more comfort from then on instead of the extra frustration and misery they continued to endure. I must point out though, the other side of the coin, if I was a Liverpool fan who entered the crush and was without a ticket, the guilt would eat me up for the rest of my life.

 

[Smug in Boots]

Yes, there really were many facets to this disaster.

The police opening the gates was one of them. But why they opened the gates is another thing. We all, of an age anyway, know it was to alleviate crowd pressure, but the thing is that it was nowhere near the first time police at football grounds had done this.

This had become a method of crowd control; feeling it was better to have fans inside rather than outside and having to control them there. Over some years some supporters, and it was those supporters of the big clubs who often featured in semi finals and so on , assumed this and would turn up without tickets. It had happened elsewhere, but Liverpool being placed in that stand was a grave error, despite it being easier for traffic etc. The terrace there was very small and could not cope with the extra fans, as the Penistone would have. If there were, as is likely and as had also happened elsewhere, fans turning up without tickets, and some maybe with a drink inside them, then that is for them to share with their conscience and with God.

Then there are the fences. These would never have been erected had a minority of fans at some clubs not invaded pitches with bad intent and worse. No fences, far fewer, possibly no fatalities. So every fan who ran on a pitch to look for a fight, or try and stop a game, has a small part of responsibility.

What the police can bever be forgiven for is the systematic cover up and attempts to deploy revisionist versions of events. They have never recovered from that really, and this has also led to all the other multiple factors not being faced up to.

Horrible thing all round. I just hope those who didn't get home that might are resting in peace.

I totally agree with everything you say, excellent post ... blame all over.

Having watched the entire footage I'm sure of what I'm saying.

You can see Liverpool supporters coming into an already crowded terrace. Some turned back, through the tunnel, and went to less crowded areas. But many others, who wanted to be behind the goal, decided to stay.

What they did was what was common in those days. They shuffled along a terrace where there was obviously no room, stopped and gave a little nudge. Those in front would drop down a step and sometimes knock the next person down one.

That's nothing terrible until it happens a dozen times and then the people at the front, who were loving the thrill of the crush, start to realise the pressure is increasing. By then it's too late and it only takes a couple of minutes of not being able to breathe in.

If you look at the gangways it's still possible to move backwards or forwards. The accepted theory that people rushed through the tunnel and an unstoppable tide crushed them at the bottom of the gangways is flawed.

It wasn't a sudden surge, it was a gradual build up of pressure because people wanted to be in that section.

 

[rowley]

I totally agree with everything you say, excellent post ... blame all over.

Having watched the entire footage I'm sure of what I'm saying.

You can see Liverpool supporters coming into an already crowded terrace. Some turned back, through the tunnel, and went to less crowded areas. But many others, who wanted to be behind the goal, decided to stay.

What they did was what was common in those days. They shuffled along a terrace where there was obviously no room, stopped and gave a little nudge. Those in front would drop down a step and sometimes knock the next person down one.

That's nothing terrible until it happens a dozen times and then the people at the front, who were loving the thrill of the crush, start to realise the pressure is increasing. By then it's too late and it only takes a couple of minutes of not being able to breathe in.

If you look at the gangways it's still possible to move backwards or forwards. The accepted theory that people rushed through the tunnel and an unstoppable tide crushed them at the bottom of the gangways is flawed.

It wasn't a sudden surge, it was a gradual build up of pressure because people wanted to be in that section.

Yes. I can remember the naive " excitement " of being in a crush as a young lad. Never as bad as all that thankfully , though there but for The grace of God and all that.

It Is a terrible blight on the way football was ran then, that it took Hillsborough and then Bradford, followed by The Taylor Report to see supporters receive treatment as humans rather than cattle.

Funny how fans behaviour changed with it!

 

[Smug in Boots]

Yes. I can remember the naive " excitement " of being in a crush as a young lad. Never as bad as all that thankfully , though there but for The grace of God and all that.

It Is a terrible blight on the way football was ran then, that it took Hillsborough and then Bradford, followed by The Taylor Report to see supporters receive treatment as humans rather than cattle.

Funny how fans behaviour changed with it!

I have to accept football supporters at that time, myself included, often behaved more like cattle than humans.

Haway, let's drop the pretence that everyone at Hillsborough, that day, were wonderful sober supporters arriving at a good time with a valid ticket.

There are people who know they went to Sheffield with no ticket, drunk or late and only cared that they blagged their way in.

It suits them that an ignorant old man decreed that no one was there who was drunk, late or ticket less ...

... anyone who went to games, in that era, would know that never ever happened.

 

[E.T. Fairfax]

I totally agree with everything you say, excellent post ... blame all over.

Having watched the entire footage I'm sure of what I'm saying.

You can see Liverpool supporters coming into an already crowded terrace. Some turned back, through the tunnel, and went to less crowded areas. But many others, who wanted to be behind the goal, decided to stay.

What they did was what was common in those days. They shuffled along a terrace where there was obviously no room, stopped and gave a little nudge. Those in front would drop down a step and sometimes knock the next person down one.

That's nothing terrible until it happens a dozen times and then the people at the front, who were loving the thrill of the crush, start to realise the pressure is increasing. By then it's too late and it only takes a couple of minutes of not being able to breathe in.

If you look at the gangways it's still possible to move backwards or forwards. The accepted theory that people rushed through the tunnel and an unstoppable tide crushed them at the bottom of the gangways is flawed.

It wasn't a sudden surge, it was a gradual build up of pressure because people wanted to be in that section.

I read that Beardsley hit the bar, which caused a surge, and a barrier collapsed, which didn't help things.

 

[LD19SAFC]

I read that Beardsley hit the bar, which caused a surge, and a barrier collapsed, which didn't help things.

It’s probably a good thing that he hit the bar and didn’t score…