Off Topic European Debate Thread

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In, out, or undecided?

  • In

    Votes: 12 27.3%

  • Out

    Votes: 27 61.4%

  • Undecided

    Votes: 5 11.4%
  • Total voters
    44
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banksyisourhero said:
It matters because it has to be paid for. so fair minded people would say that the people that HAVE paid for it THROUGH THEIR LIFETIMES. will get it when needed, like Oskar Pyecroft was turned down for funding when Your lot are constantly harping on about the NHS being underfunded and you have just been given a reason why it is at breaking point.

It is quite simple MTG, the resources are finite and those who have paid for it quite rightly want to be able to use it when required.

So we're clear. I am referring to 'health tourists' who fly in use the NHS and leave. I personally have no problem with people working here and paying taxes who use the NHS.
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See banksy, I completely agree in that we can't have 'health tourists' come over, but I'm not convinced the problem is that bad. You see this used as one of the major arguments in the 'Out' camp, and I have no doubt that it needs sorting at a time when the NHS resources are so stretched, but I'd imagine that the actual figures are so low that they are bordering on negligible. The same applies for benefit cheats; we love to get so incredibly angry over them (rightly so) but there are much bigger and more expensive things to be angry about. The bankers for example no doubt have cost us more than the benefits cheats ever have or will. I could well be wrong, and that's fair enough, but I haven't seen anything to back up that it's a problem other than 'it exists'.

Also, I agree with MTG in that everyone is entitled to free health care, but unfortunately we're not in a position to offer it to the world. Anything like this has to be sustainable, and we're much better off joining other countries in helping the poorer nations to set up their own health care systems, however minor.
 
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BCFCRob said:
but I'd imagine that the actual figures are so low that they are bordering on negligible
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Rob you seem a sensible person to converse with and much of what you say makes complete sense but imaging what the figures are doesn't really help. I can sit here all day and imagine they are in the billions.. I would prefer to know what they actually are, as I say I read a Doctor saying it was a major drain on the NHS.. Was he right?


BCFCRob said:
Also, I agree with MTG in that everyone is entitled to free health care, but unfortunately we're not in a position to offer it to the world. Anything like this has to be sustainable, and we're much better off joining other countries in helping the poorer nations to set up their own health care systems, however minor
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I agree.. but as you say we are not in the position to finance the worlds health care systems, our own requires more help first.
 
BCFCRob said:
See banksy, I completely agree in that we can't have 'health tourists' come over, but I'm not convinced the problem is that bad. You see this used as one of the major arguments in the 'Out' camp, and I have no doubt that it needs sorting at a time when the NHS resources are so stretched, but I'd imagine that the actual figures are so low that they are bordering on . .
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No figure is negligible.

Area health authorities / service providers with different demographics will have differing pressures on the resources they have e.g Banes (low migrant population Somerset - Bath) v Bristol (err its not Bath).

BCFCRob said:
Also, I agree with MTG in that everyone is entitled to free health care, but unfortunately we're not in a position to offer it to the world. Anything like this has to be sustainable, and we're much better off joining other countries in helping the poorer nations to set up their own health care systems, however minor.
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At this point the NHS / social care is not sustainable. In an affluent City like Bristol the social care budget has been slashed and services for the vulnerable have been cut. How will increasing the UK population by further millions alter this? The answer is it will worsen the demands..The pro EU camp do not have an answer defining what a sustainable population is.
 
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the bigger the population the more infrastructure ..and infra structure is a negative on the economy .. great to say we are creating jobs by building this and that, but we are actually increasing the people to build these things before the need to build them ... our population should be no more than 60m ....
 
The government has no money of its own. All its revenue comes form taxes or borrowing. All Income Tax and Insurance contributions are general taxes which help run the country for the next week or two, they are not dedicated to the NHS, used to pay for future pensions or anything they simply go in the pot, just like road tax doesn't go on roads. The NHS given current revenues is unsustainable simple as. In the absence of increasing taxes through whatever means then we have to borrow money to bridge the gap. The lenders have in recent years become more worried about the loans being honoured so they increase the interest rate to mitigate the risk. It is the government's job to manage its resultant overdrawn bank account.. Their strategy is obvious increase taxes or reduce costs. Balancing the books in our society where different people have different priorities cannot be easy. People talk of rights to housing and health care but in facts they aren't rights they are a wish list of things we would like to have. Greater amounts of private money must come into parts of our society which used to be in the public sector
 
Cliftonville said:
Wrong. Social care is included in law.
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Interesting. I am prepared to be convinced. I have always understood rights as "legally negotiated principles which are usually accompanied by some form of duty (to enforce) from the relevant government department". I am also aware from Tandy that duties must happen (whereas powers are optional). I am not disagreeing with you but could you itemise what social care "elements" are rights.
 
HANDY ANDY said:
could you itemise what social care "elements" are rights.
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Care and housing in particular for those with disabilities and the elderly. Society no longer houses people with disabilities in asylums which still occurred as recently as the early eighties.

In the UK a right to an adequate standard (care and housing) of living is recognised.
 
johngalleyfan2 said:
the bigger the population the more infrastructure ..and infra structure is a negative on the economy .. great to say we are creating jobs by building this and that, but we are actually increasing the people to build these things before the need to build them ... our population should be no more than 60m ....
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Our population has grown by 20 million in the last century. We have always adapted, there is no reason why we can't continue to grow except excuses!
 
Mind the gap! said:
Our population has grown by 20 million in the last century. We have always adapted, there is no reason why we can't continue to grow except excuses!
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You've been given facts whats the population grown by since 2000? isn't it a higher rate that the last century? as in much higher? how about you explain how you would pay for all the public services and infrastructure needed to cope?

what will house prices be in future? mine wil be 400k soon for a terraced three bed. people would have to earn 50-60k a year to pay the mortgage. on that.

You say build more. how? where? with what? maybe you would like to see council tax quadrupled to pay for the council houses needed for the more and more.

Schools?

hospitals?

how? where? with what?
 
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Red Alert said:
You've been given facts whats the population grown by since 2000? isn't it a higher rate that the last century? as in much higher? how about you explain how you would pay for all the public services and infrastructure needed to cope?
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He won't answer you. He'll just say its excuses!
 
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Mind the gap! said:
And do you have any idea of how many health tourists they are. In my opinion the idea of health tourists Is perfect scaremongering and ****flinging from the out side.

Immigrants who come here pay taxes and national insurance and thus put money into the pot. I don't think there are any normal cases in which people are paying in and not getting treatment. Unless of course closet racist Redprint (CORRECTION) (sorry RedorDead)says that they should be put to the bottom of the pile for being European
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How am I a closet racist?
 
I'm confused why he actually had the audacity to say that. I then read later that he's referring to Redprint not me, but he had a choice then to take my name out of it. He's choose not to so he must think it's ok to class me a racist.
To say I'm pissed off at the moment is an understatement.
 
Red Alert said:
You've been given facts whats the population grown by since 2000? isn't it a higher rate that the last century? as in much higher? how about you explain how you would pay for all the public services and infrastructure needed to cope?

what will house prices be in future? mine wil be 400k soon for a terraced three bed. people would have to earn 50-60k a year to pay the mortgage. on that.

You say build more. how? where? with what? maybe you would like to see council tax quadrupled to pay for the council houses needed for the more and more.

Schools?

hospitals?

how? where? with what?
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It's not like you can't sell houses when built or anything. How about building new towns and sell some of the new houses to cover the costs. Keep restrictions on it such as resale value and rent controls. Then use the rest as rented and council accommodation.
 
banksyisourhero said:
Everyone who makes a comment regarding anything at all negative about immigrants is a racist according to MTG, and he said he'd beat you up when he sees you!
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I never said the last bit Banksy

I was simply saying that redprint's comments on Europeans at the doctors being borderline racist.

I left RedorDeads name to try and show the fact of mistaken identify and make sure it was clear I wasn't accusing him of being racist. This wasn't as clear as I had thought it was
 
' I was referring to redprint's remark not RedorDead 's'

I've read my comment again.
Can someone other than Mtg explain his description of me.

I realise I'm from a different generation.
My daughter went nuts when she used my phone to ring for a takeaway.
She asked what it was under in my directory.
Sorry, but it rhymed with clink, and as I said she went nuts.
I didn't mean harm but it seems we old uns need to wise up not to offend others.
 
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