Off Topic European Debate Thread

[HANDY ANDY]

Yes it was emotive and silly.

People on this this thread do not have to be Milton Friedman (free market economist and all around nasty bastard) to realise project fear is paper thin.

Britain will remain amongst one of the top economies in the World in or outside of the EU. The members of G8 and G20 will not cease trading with the UK if it becomes a non EU member state. The French will not pull the energy plug. The Spanish will continue to run high street backs. Germany will keep those flogging cars. Capital and commerce will always find a way of trading with other capital and trading.

The UK cannot meet the demands of its own population anymore, the UK is woefully underprepared for the rising population it has, but some are readily prepared to add another 5 - 10% to the Countries population in the short term, let alone a long term.

Not one in post on this thread has indicated where the population line gets drawn. Not one post outlines how they will deal with more pressure on health and social care, pensions and working patterns.

I will make no apology for suggesting that the money wasted from this Isle daily by the EU should be reinvested via an out vote to help cure the acute housing provision crisis in the UK.

Your sentiments are admirable but a simple question. What is the point in building houses if no one has the money to buy them? Personal debt already exceeds national debt. The only option will be to reduce prices and then developers wont build them and half the country will be in negative equity. The whole thing is like a big jelly i.e. something sticks out so you push it in and it comes out the other side in some other form. I don't pretend to know the answer but we have to make a balanced decision based on our perceptions. The joy of debate is everyone has different needs and views. The most popular view will win. Campaigners should be concentrating on getting people to actually vote. "Bums on seats" will count as the votes profile is already known older people want out youngsters want in

 

[Mind the gap!]

Eu will still remain a top 4 superpower,

The percentage of world Gdp per country will decrease as other countries gdps rise globally. This does not mean that our wealth will decrease.

In fact wiz that article proves my point that we need to stay in Eu to remain competitive and that if we leave our influence and wealth globally will fall even more

 

[banksyisourhero]

NOT MY WORDS BUT SOMEONE WHO HAS WATCHED BREXIT THE MOVIE

We're increasingly getting Brexiteers commenting "Watch Brexit the Movie!"... so we did.

Here's our take on it. The whole documentary is about the need for deregulation. It's fundamentally a neoliberal infomercial, painting history through the mantra of deregulation leads to growth and regulation leads to stagnation. They tell us that the EU is over-regulated, so we need to get out - and then we will economically prosper. That's the thesis. The only problem is that they have no business/ economist backing whatsoever. Instead of interviewing CEOs of Airbus, Rolls-Royce, etc (all of which have come out for Remain), the documentary interviews just the standard clique of Nigel Lawson, Daniel Hannan, James Delingpole, Nigel Farage, etc... Politicians and right-wing journalists - with Kate Hoey thrown it.

So with an economic argument fallen flat, we're left with their wrapping of "freedom" and claims to support the little man against the Euro elite. Two problems here. Firstly, a "free" Britain could not make its "own laws" all the time when dealing in the international space. So to "go global" and make all those spiffing trade deals, there needs to be agreements on regulations. That's what the single market is. Agreed standards. Right now our governments and MEPs are elected by us and vote on cross-border agreements. If we pull out - how do we get a democratic say? We don't. And we don't gain freedoms on Brexit, we lose them. We lose freedom of movement, freedom to hire from the EU visa-free, freedoms of access to the single market, freedoms associated with the working time directive potentially, rights to cross-border care potentially. What are the freedoms these Brexiteers speak of then? It is simply their own freedom to rule this country. Little people get no more freedoms as the neoliberals roll their protections away.

Finally, they blame the EU for everything - including declining fish in the sea (which, incidentally has been a problem since bottom-trawling began some 150 years ago), even peddling the myth of the Dutch trawler that takes 25% of the UK quota (a problem of allocation at the UK government level - not the EU's diktat). They also imply that all those EU regulations that swirl around us are unique in the world. They are not. In fact, the UK has its own stunning bureaucracy and love of gold-plating of EU regulations. So why aren't they attacking that? Simple - it's a bigger ideological thing. They want us to vote leave so that they can take control and pursue their glorious economic deregulation, unshackled - because you help the little person by taking away environmental, social and health protections.

Why have you quoted this when you can't even be bothered to watch the movie? All this is rubbish and fundamentally wrong about it in parts (fishing for example) as thats not what was said..

And this sums it up..

"It is simply their own freedom to rule this country"

That is exactly what it is, it has worked here for hundreds of years and long may it continue. I will be voting out and will hope the majority agree.

 

[Mind the gap!]

I will be voting out and will hope the majority agree.

the out campaign unfortunately has ability to put patriotism before thinking and logic

 

[banksyisourhero]

The point I am trying to make is that our days of being a major global power are coming to an end as other countries are catching up and overtaking us. So what's the answer carry on as we are or form alliances. I am not an economist but I feel I would sooner "join up" with others rather than becoming a smaller fish in a big pond. Its a mad scramble to maintain our position and standard of living. Emotive maybe but I believe demonstrates the need to get it right.

EU regs suit you though don't they Lared.. you can have your village greens and Judicial reviews and keep on appealing and arguing till they will eventually tire of you so much you get your own way.

 

[banksyisourhero]

the out campaign unfortunately has ability to put patriotism before thinking and logic

You have not put one single post on here that has contained any thinking or logic MTG and its been pointed out to you by many posters again and again..

 

[wizered]

10 Reasons Why the UK Should Leave the EU

1) The EU undermines British democracy - Because the European Parliament makes laws on an EU-wide basis, we are in the bizarre situation of non-British representatives making laws which affect the UK and likewise British representatives are helping to make laws affecting other member states. For many people opposed to Britain's EU membership, this is a matter of principle - the UK should be governed by British representatives only and the only way to achieve this is by leaving the EU.

2) Leaving the EU will not stop Britain from trading with Europe - A common argument against leaving the EU is that it will shut us off from the European market but this claim is not borne out by the facts. Iceland, Liechtenstein, Norway and Switzerland for example are not members of the EU but have access to the single market through the European Free Trade Association. Furthermore, the UK is a huge market for many EU member states so it would make little sense for European exporters to cut off such a large market.

3) Leaving the EU will allow the UK greater trading freedom - If the UK were to leave the EU, we'd be allowed to pursue our own wide-ranging bilateral trade agreements with other economic powerhouses such as the US, China, India, Brazil and Japan far more easily.

4) The EU is wasteful - Vast sums of money have been spent on unnecessary and inappropriate projects such as £760,000 for a "gender equal" cultural centre which was never built, over £350,000 for a project to get European children to draw each other and £155,000 for a Portuguese golf resort. Of course, the UK government too wastes money but why subject ourselves to more waste than we have to, particularly in the age of austerity?

5) The EU is not transparent - Many EU laws are discussed and drafted in informal meetings held between the "trilogue" - representatives of the European parliament, European Commission and EU Council. No public records are published on the content of these meetings. An example of this is the secret TTIP negotiations which are taking place right now. Read our article about that here.

6) The UK does not need the EU to be relevant on the world stage - Supporters of the EU often argue that we must remain in it to stay relevant but much of our clout does not come from our membership of the EU. We are one of only 5 permanent members of the UN Security Council, we are members of the world's most powerful military alliance in NATO and we are key players in the IMF and the World Bank. On the other hand, the EU's Common Foreign and Security Policy is toothless and requires unanimity before new policy stances can be adopted. The EU is credible because states like the UK and Germany are members, not the other way around.

7) There can be no fair, controlled immigration policy while the UK is a member of the EU - Because of the EU's free movement of people policy, member states are unable to place any meaningful controls on EU migrants, meaning that member states may only set a limit on the number of non-EU migrants that are able to enter the country. As a result, the UK has had to turn away skilled immigrants to the UK this year at the same time as being powerless to turn away non-skilled EU migrants. If you believe in controlled immigration, it can only be fair with Britain outside the EU.

8) The EU has done little to ensure peace in Europe - It is often argued that the only reason why Europe has largely been at peace since World War II is because of the EU, but this ignores the fact that it was NATO and the American nuclear umbrella, not the EEC (as it was then known) which was responsible for stopping an East-West conflict during the Cold War, for example. Furthermore, the EU did little to stop the conflicts on its doorstep in the Balkans during the 90s. Even if the EU were to disintegrate, war between European states would be no less irrational and unlikely than it is now.

9) The Common Agricultural Policy (CAP) - This policy is essentially a gigantic EU subsidy for the agriculture industry and takes up around 40% of the entire EU budget. Because the UK has a relatively small agriculture sector (approximately 0.6% of the economy compared to 3.6% in France for example) this means that CAP costs the UK rather than benefits it.

10) For the EU to properly work, even more integration is required - The crisis in Greece demonstrates that for the EU project to really work, there needs to be complete political and economic integration. Only through passing even more powers to the EU Commission, can the union overcome many of its efficiency problems. However, further integration is not something many people in the UK are comfortable with, including this author. Free trade and the common market are good things but we must not let our country be absorbed into a "United States of Europe" where the European interest trumps the British interest.

Regardless of which way you vote in this referendum, it is important that you vote according to your own beliefs and nobody else's. In the coming year there will be a plethora of people from the Prime Minister right down to bloggers such as myself trying to convince you which way to vote, but ultimately the choice is up to you.

 

[Mind the gap!]

10 Reasons Why the UK Should Leave the EU

1) The EU undermines British democracy - Because the European Parliament makes laws on an EU-wide basis, we are in the bizarre situation of non-British representatives making laws which affect the UK and likewise British representatives are helping to make laws affecting other member states. For many people opposed to Britain's EU membership, this is a matter of principle - the UK should be governed by British representatives only and the only way to achieve this is by leaving the EU.

2) Leaving the EU will not stop Britain from trading with Europe - A common argument against leaving the EU is that it will shut us off from the European market but this claim is not borne out by the facts. Iceland, Liechtenstein, Norway and Switzerland for example are not members of the EU but have access to the single market through the European Free Trade Association. Furthermore, the UK is a huge market for many EU member states so it would make little sense for European exporters to cut off such a large market.

3) Leaving the EU will allow the UK greater trading freedom - If the UK were to leave the EU, we'd be allowed to pursue our own wide-ranging bilateral trade agreements with other economic powerhouses such as the US, China, India, Brazil and Japan far more easily.

4) The EU is wasteful - Vast sums of money have been spent on unnecessary and inappropriate projects such as £760,000 for a "gender equal" cultural centre which was never built, over £350,000 for a project to get European children to draw each other and £155,000 for a Portuguese golf resort. Of course, the UK government too wastes money but why subject ourselves to more waste than we have to, particularly in the age of austerity?

5) The EU is not transparent - Many EU laws are discussed and drafted in informal meetings held between the "trilogue" - representatives of the European parliament, European Commission and EU Council. No public records are published on the content of these meetings. An example of this is the secret TTIP negotiations which are taking place right now. Read our article about that here.

6) The UK does not need the EU to be relevant on the world stage - Supporters of the EU often argue that we must remain in it to stay relevant but much of our clout does not come from our membership of the EU. We are one of only 5 permanent members of the UN Security Council, we are members of the world's most powerful military alliance in NATO and we are key players in the IMF and the World Bank. On the other hand, the EU's Common Foreign and Security Policy is toothless and requires unanimity before new policy stances can be adopted. The EU is credible because states like the UK and Germany are members, not the other way around.

7) There can be no fair, controlled immigration policy while the UK is a member of the EU - Because of the EU's free movement of people policy, member states are unable to place any meaningful controls on EU migrants, meaning that member states may only set a limit on the number of non-EU migrants that are able to enter the country. As a result, the UK has had to turn away skilled immigrants to the UK this year at the same time as being powerless to turn away non-skilled EU migrants. If you believe in controlled immigration, it can only be fair with Britain outside the EU.

8) The EU has done little to ensure peace in Europe - It is often argued that the only reason why Europe has largely been at peace since World War II is because of the EU, but this ignores the fact that it was NATO and the American nuclear umbrella, not the EEC (as it was then known) which was responsible for stopping an East-West conflict during the Cold War, for example. Furthermore, the EU did little to stop the conflicts on its doorstep in the Balkans during the 90s. Even if the EU were to disintegrate, war between European states would be no less irrational and unlikely than it is now.

9) The Common Agricultural Policy (CAP) - This policy is essentially a gigantic EU subsidy for the agriculture industry and takes up around 40% of the entire EU budget. Because the UK has a relatively small agriculture sector (approximately 0.6% of the economy compared to 3.6% in France for example) this means that CAP costs the UK rather than benefits it.

10) For the EU to properly work, even more integration is required - The crisis in Greece demonstrates that for the EU project to really work, there needs to be complete political and economic integration. Only through passing even more powers to the EU Commission, can the union overcome many of its efficiency problems. However, further integration is not something many people in the UK are comfortable with, including this author. Free trade and the common market are good things but we must not let our country be absorbed into a "United States of Europe" where the European interest trumps the British interest.

Regardless of which way you vote in this referendum, it is important that you vote according to your own beliefs and nobody else's. In the coming year there will be a plethora of people from the Prime Minister right down to bloggers such as myself trying to convince you which way to vote, but ultimately the choice is up to you.

1) Eu parliament is a democracy, most parliament laws are not restricted by Eu. Apart from ones similar to bedroom tax and allowing employers to exploit employees

2) yes it won't although that doesn't mean that things won't change for the worse such as tariffs

3) very unlikely that these trading agreements would be better

4)small sums of money, the Eu development fund is largely beneficial

5) no different to other parliaments/most business deals

6)downright false

7) policy is not unfair on all citizens of Eu. Not taking in skilled migrants from elsewhere bit is bollocks.

8) increasing cooperation is still beneficial though.

9) what is the problem in this, it doesn't hinder us. If we had a larger farming industry then we would get more money.

10) integration is a good thing, the Eu is about raising standards across Europe

IF THESE ARE THE 10 BEST REASONS FOR LEAVING THEN IT IS NOT WORTH LEAVING AT all

 

[Mind the gap!]

You have not put one single post on here that has contained any thinking or logic MTG and its been pointed out to you by many posters again and again..

I think the advantages to our economy and the benefits of the EU parliament is a good thing and that leaving is rash and unthoughtful

 

[banksyisourhero]

I think the advantages to our economy and the benefits of the EU parliament is a good thing and that leaving is rash and unthoughtful

And I think you have spoken complete rubbish from the first page and the only reason you have given for us for staying in is so you can get a nice little EU based job..

So unthoughtful appears to be self serving and thinking only of yourself.. but we've been here before haven't we..

 

[banksyisourhero]

1) Eu parliament is a democracy, most parliament laws are not restricted by Eu. Apart from ones similar to bedroom tax and allowing employers to exploit employees

2) yes it won't although that doesn't mean that things won't change for the worse such as tariffs

3) very unlikely that these trading agreements would be better

4)small sums of money, the Eu development fund is largely beneficial

5) no different to other parliaments/most business deals

6)downright false

7) policy is not unfair on all citizens of Eu. Not taking in skilled migrants from elsewhere bit is bollocks.

8) increasing cooperation is still beneficial though.

9) what is the problem in this, it doesn't hinder us. If we had a larger farming industry then we would get more money.

10) integration is a good thing, the Eu is about raising standards across Europe

IF THESE ARE THE 10 BEST REASONS FOR LEAVING THEN IT IS NOT WORTH LEAVING AT all

IF THESE ARE YOUR BEST 10 ARGUMENTS ITS NOT WORTH READING ANYMORE OF YOUR POSTS..

NO, 5 HOW WOULD YOU KNOW YOU'RE STILL AT SCHOOL?

 

[wizered]

We are one of only 5 permanent members of the UN Security Council, we are members of the world's most powerful military alliance in NATO and we are key players in the IMF and the World Bank.

On the other hand, the EU's Common Foreign and Security Policy is toothless and requires unanimity before new policy stances can be adopted. The EU is credible because states like the UK and Germany are members, not the other way around.

The UK does not need the EU to be relevant on the world stage.

Supporters of the EU often argue that we must remain in it to stay relevant but much of our clout does not come from our membership of the EU.

I have split reason 6 into 4 sections for easy understanding, which part is downright false ?

 

[Mind the gap!]

Number 3

 

[HANDY ANDY]

EU regs suit you though don't they Lared.. you can have your village greens and Judicial reviews and keep on appealing and arguing till they will eventually tire of you so much you get your own way.

You are obviously an intelligent man who has formed views to which you are entitled. The big difference between you and I is that I never default to personal abuse. All that does in my eyes is demean your credibility. The way you speak to MTG is sometimes disgusting and unacceptable. He is obviously an extremely intelligent young man who is passionate about his point of view. The fact that you dismiss his views as Bollocks as he has no experience of life does not mean he has to be wrong. What I do say is that he is the future and you are the past. None of us can change that. Challenge his views if you must but do not demean him or else he will become the more determined.
As regards Village Greens the Commons Act 2006 is English legislation and for your information I always strongly opposed the AV application which failed because of the incompetence of SLs advisors and BCC. AV residents were extremely lucky to win and they know it. The good thing however was that the lessons learnt helped to change VG law.

 

[wizered]

Please take note.

Any further clashes between banksy and Handy Andy will be deleted without question, I've left the above comment on so we can all be reminded of the boring, repetitive, constant waffle that we had to endure until the last episode ceased, the membership have had enough of this crap.

If it is repeated without consideration of this request bans will be requested, please take note and be aware I have not forgotten the history and comments that has happened on the last 3 occasions.

 

[tiger-emyrs-wolf]

1) Eu parliament is a democracy, most parliament laws are not restricted by Eu. Apart from ones similar to bedroom tax and allowing employers to exploit employees. What about stopping the blocking of prisioners from voting which we have had for generations and needs to stay, holding up sound legal arguements incrasing cost to tax payer as a result.

2) yes it won't although that doesn't mean that things won't change for the worse such as tariffs-can be countered by tading more with other countries and more likely to benefit EU if they limit the tariffs

3) very unlikely that these trading agreements would be better-why not more countries outside the EU in the commonwelath which we have more in common with.

4)small sums of money, the Eu development fund is largely beneficial- Tell that to the farmers

5) no different to other parliaments/most business deals- We at least have the ability to ask for freedom of information

6)downright false - Why whats your reasoning for this?

7) policy is not unfair on all citizens of Eu. Not taking in skilled migrants from elsewhere bit is bollocks.-No's its not tell that to the Americans who have the skills and the language and the empolyers who have to pay through the nose to employ the best.

8) increasing cooperation is still beneficial though.-not for the ukraine and crimea

9) what is the problem in this, it doesn't hinder us. If we had a larger farming industry then we would get more money.- oh my days really it hinders us that we lose money on farming which pushes up the costs to the framers.

10) integration is a good thing, the Eu is about raising standards across Europe- like i said what about the lack of gay rights in EU Countries done 0 for it want to bring in the Ukraine which has an awful record of gay rights.

 

[banksyisourhero]

You are obviously an intelligent man who has formed views to which you are entitled. The big difference between you and I is that I never default to personal abuse. All that does in my eyes is demean your credibility. The way you speak to MTG is sometimes disgusting and unacceptable. He is obviously an extremely intelligent young man who is passionate about his point of view. The fact that you dismiss his views as Bollocks as he has no experience of life does not mean he has to be wrong. What I do say is that he is the future and you are the past. None of us can change that. Challenge his views if you must but do not demean him or else he will become the more determined.
As regards Village Greens the Commons Act 2006 is English legislation and for your information I always strongly opposed the AV application which failed because of the incompetence of SLs advisors and BCC. AV residents were extremely lucky to win and they know it. The good thing however was that the lessons learnt helped to change VG law.

Clinging to MTG now as your last bastion because he shares your views, how sad. Oh and you have called me a thug, bully and a hooligan, yet you know nothing about me or my family but you don't resort to personal abuse? There will be a day when you can say that to me personally rather than hide on here.

I know exactly what you did John and when and I might be a lot of things but I'm no liar..

You however are a massive liar and I can prove it...

Just so you know.. I couldn't care less what MTG thinks, I have asked him on numerous occasions to back up his statements with some evidence, he has consistently failed to do that. but repeated over and over the same rubbish.. (much like yourself!)

 

[Cliftonville]

..

 

[Redprintt]

Took Mrs R to the Doctors today.
We had to wait while 4 Eastern Europeans registered, it was like pulling teeth, they could barely utter a word in English.
In the waiting room were 2 families (6 including their children) from Europe.
We haven't a clue how many are here, but I met 10 in a rural backwater today.

 

[Red Robin]

Took Mrs R to the Doctors today.
We had to wait while 4 Eastern Europeans registered, it was like pulling teeth, they could barely utter a word in English.
In the waiting room were 2 families (6 including their children) from Europe.
We haven't a clue how many are here, but I met 10 in a rural backwater today.

We have our own being put on the back burner,whilst we deal with these free loaders.
Wrong very wrong.