Off Topic European Debate Thread

[Premiershiporbust IV]

He's taken up MTGs tactics of answering a question that no one asked and ignoring the ones that were asked!

Right, my final answer then I am going to bed.... What is my point...? It is that I don't understand the one you are trying to make with your Norwegian video. You refer to "scare tactics", others would call it an economic argument in favour of joining.

A case of semantics, a different viewpoint.

Not sure what your point is anyway because as a result of the referendum, whilst Norway did not select full membership of the EU, they DID join the European Economic Area which to all intents and purposes, is a slightly watered down version of the full membership.

So, in essence, whilst not a member of the EU in name, to trade in the free market, they have to do virtually the same as full members. As EU laws are made, they’re passed to a EU committee in the EEA states to be made into laws that apply in those countries. These have to match the EU version “as closely as possible”.

Not only that, but they have to allow free movement of people, EXACTLY THE SAME AS IF THEY WERE FULL EU MEMBERS. They have all of the legislation but no say in what goes on at all so in trying to be clever, they shot themselves in the foot...

But they don't have to adopt EU laws you say - BUT THEY DO, one declinature in the last 5 years which they subsequently withdrew...

They are not in the EU...?

To all intents and purposes, THEY ARE - it's just more semantics...

 

[tiger-emyrs-wolf]

We need to leave the EU our sugar production is on its knees the tariffs the EU put on sugarcane is ridiculous and then use it to subsidise the Sugar beat farmers is wrong you may wonder what the difference is and it's the quality of the sugar. Using sugar cane requires less sugar in our foods which is then healthier for the population. The EU shouldn't restrict trading like this and cause a company to make a loss.

 

[Premiershiporbust IV]

We need to leave the EU our sugar production is on its knees the tariffs the EU put on sugarcane is ridiculous and then use it to subsidise the Sugar beat farmers is wrong you may wonder what the difference is and it's the quality of the sugar. Using sugar cane requires less sugar in our foods which is then healthier for the population. The EU shouldn't restrict trading like this and cause a company to make a loss.

That is really not a good reason to leave - we have to consider the global big picture for decades to come, not one company...

 

[Captain Jack Sparrow]

That is really not a good reason to leave - we have to consider the global big picture for decades to come, not one company...

That is just 1 of many reasons to leave the EU. On its own it may not be a good reason to leave. But add it with other reasons which have been recorded numerous times, its adds weight to leave the EU. Its not rocket science that Tiger is not just using this example as the only reason to make a choice. Tiger obviously can see the bigger picture and has many reasons to want to leave. He could list all reasons in 1 comment which several of us have done previously, but going by replies from you and MTG, either you wont read it all or wont understand it anyway. So your being spoon fed reasons.

 

[Premiershiporbust IV]

That is just 1 of many reasons to leave the EU. On its own it may not be a good reason to leave. But add it with other reasons which have been recorded numerous times, its adds weight to leave the EU. Its not rocket science that Tiger is not just using this example as the only reason to make a choice. Tiger obviously can see the bigger picture and has many reasons to want to leave. He could list all reasons in 1 comment which several of us have done previously, but going by replies from you and MTG, either you wont read it all or wont understand it anyway. So your being spoon fed reasons.

This is a debate, not a slanging match so I object to comments like "spoon fed" and I "won't understand" like I am an imbecile just because I do not agree with your point of view. I could equally say the same to you about your complete failure to understand how crippling to the economy Brexit would be but, I haven't. Not to mention the constant slagging off of Cameron (who I have no great love of), suggest you put the words "Gove, turtle and toxic" into google re your leader to discover the real reason why he is on the Brexit trail....

There are pros and cons to both sides of the debate and frankly, we are clearly never going to agree but this is a forum to discuss these, not to question the intelligence of your opponent (unless they are a real thicko ... )

 

[banksyisourhero]

MTG is deliberately being contrary despite being given actual 'facts' so he is bringing that on himself.

I'm the one slagging off Cameron as he is a liar and I have proved it with his own words on here!

 

[banksyisourhero]

Right, my final answer then I am going to bed.... What is my point...? It is that I don't understand the one you are trying to make with your Norwegian video. You refer to "scare tactics", others would call it an economic argument in favour of joining.

A case of semantics, a different viewpoint.

Not sure what your point is anyway because as a result of the referendum, whilst Norway did not select full membership of the EU, they DID join the European Economic Area which to all intents and purposes, is a slightly watered down version of the full membership.

So, in essence, whilst not a member of the EU in name, to trade in the free market, they have to do virtually the same as full members. As EU laws are made, they’re passed to a EU committee in the EEA states to be made into laws that apply in those countries. These have to match the EU version “as closely as possible”.

Not only that, but they have to allow free movement of people, EXACTLY THE SAME AS IF THEY WERE FULL EU MEMBERS. They have all of the legislation but no say in what goes on at all so in trying to be clever, they shot themselves in the foot...

But they don't have to adopt EU laws you say - BUT THEY DO, one declinature in the last 5 years which they subsequently withdrew...

They are not in the EU...?

To all intents and purposes, THEY ARE - it's just more semantics...

No they're not though are they!!

"Semantics".. they appear to be the Stay campaigns style.

And again you miss the point about the video, so I suggest you watch it this time and absorb the detail of the scaremongering on there, the point is it is identical to the scaremongering used here.

IE: complete bullshit and lies....

 

[Mind the gap!]

Churchill wouldn't have wanted us to make the 'terrible mistake' of quitting the EU, says wartime Prime Minister's grandson

• Sir Nicholas Soames dismissed claims wartime PM would have backed Brexit
• Tory MP said it was not 'sensible idea' to cut ties with Brussels
• Warning came with just two days to go until the crucial referendum

Read more: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/art...-Prime-Minister-s-grandson.html#ixzz4CIHZOxaE
Follow us: @MailOnline on Twitter | DailyMail on Facebook

 

[Premiershiporbust IV]

No they're not though are they!!

In name only, they still have to do everything that a full member state does to benefit from the free market so what is the distinction. A title only....

Re Cameron (and politicians in general), I remind you of the old maxim, "how can you tell if a politician is lying"..?

A: their lips are moving

They are all the same banksy with, I have to say, the possible exception of Corbin although I am no supporter of his.

Likewise with Gove, I suspect his dedication to the cause, his motivation for Brexit is revenge, pure and simple. He felt stabbed in the back by Cameron when he had to be removed from the Education post for being "a toxic liability" (but he did it to himself) so defeating Cameron would be the sweetest revenge...

Right, off out now for the day, happy debating...

 

[Mind the gap!]

Im not talking about the Greek politicians. Im talking about the innocent Greek people. The EU didnt have to make it harder for them. The innocent people are the ones paying for it all. Where is the EU's compassion for them? Nothing but **** from the EU on them. You got the phrase kicking someone when they are down, well the EU are doing that to a whole nation of innocent people.

So are you saying that we pay too much into the EU or that the EU doesn't help countries enough with finance?

 

[Premiershiporbust IV]

No they're not though are they!!

"Semantics".. they appear to be the Stay campaigns style.

And again you miss the point about the video, so I suggest you watch it this time and absorb the detail of the scaremongering on there, the point is it is identical to the scaremongering used here.

IE: complete bullshit and lies....

This is entirely the point,

It is bullshit and lies, TO YOU.

To me, it is a strong economic case for not leaving,

One man's scare is another man's truth, it's a matter of opinion doesn't make it any less valid than the points you make

What happens then, if it actually is true...?

 

[Mind the gap!]

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[Cliftonville]

You cannot fob off stuff to the EU if it doesn't meet their standards, it simply would not take it.

Eu laws such as not being able to sack a worker for refusing to work more than 48 hours a week, sick pay, maternity pay and holiday are under threat. I'm not saying they will all go but the Eu guarantees these rights. I can see future governments scrapping or reducing the above particularly the 48 hour rule.

For me whilst I would like to see some industries industrialised, I can't see us ever deciding to renationalise stuff apart from maybe railways in the long term and so I'm not bothered by this issue

Where did I say that EU standards would not be met and products would be fobbed off? EU standards in the cosmetic industry have been known to be lower than British testing standards.

Can explain why those rights, which were gained by British workers e.g. Trade Unions would be abandoned? I have faith that we would be able to defend ourselves against our own elected government. It is unthinkable that a Government would remove maternity pay, alter the law without resistance and get enough support to do it.

Workers rights in this country have been lost while in the EU. Check the criminal justice act. Think about secondary picketing etc. Think about zero hours contracts. The EU has been no shield.

Regarding the above. Your idea appears to be that the rights of British workers should be defended by somebody else. That somebody else (the EU) did not defend the Greeks.

The EU has made decisions that affect negatively working peoples ability to improve their working pay and conditions. Obvious cases would be the Viking line case, austerity, the mass free movement of labour etc.

Your first and third sentences are contradictory x your previous postings.

In previous posts you did indeed indicate you would like to see some industries industrialised, particularly utilties. You did indicate a left leaning increase in public spending and nationalisation. It would fall foul of the EU. Under the EU countries (not all yet) have been instructed to nationalise railways. Britain has no control there.

Do you not think that strains are down to cuts by the government?

Not solely as pointed out in previous posts.

 

[banksyisourhero]

On your poster MTG

remain side,

Point 1 - no we don't, you have been given numerous examples of this!

Point 2 - quite correct that's what it should be!

Point 3- yes I also agree, we leave and that becomes possible with freedom to chose!

Point 4 - your plan, more of the same, the country needing to build a City the size of Hull to accommodate all migrants. You have not put one single part of a 'plan' on any post so please enlighten us to the 'plan' ?

Point 5 - we don't share interests now and we certainly aren't included!

Point -6 you can swap this with the stay side point. All myths. Except for the £350m we send to Europe each week and the 330 000 immigrants each year! That's a know reality!!

Point 7 - we don't help shape them we get no say!


Thanks for putting that it makes some salient points!

Vote out. Vote for democracy! Vote for self control!

 

[Captain Jack Sparrow]

This is a debate, not a slanging match so I object to comments like "spoon fed" and I "won't understand" like I am an imbecile just because I do not agree with your point of view. I could equally say the same to you about your complete failure to understand how crippling to the economy Brexit would be but, I haven't. Not to mention the constant slagging off of Cameron (who I have no great love of), suggest you put the words "Gove, turtle and toxic" into google re your leader to discover the real reason why he is on the Brexit trail....

There are pros and cons to both sides of the debate and frankly, we are clearly never going to agree but this is a forum to discuss these, not to question the intelligence of your opponent (unless they are a real thicko ... )

Yes this is a debate. It a shame though that the debate is only coming from 1 side. Our side. Im not doing any slanging thank you very much and I object your accusations that I have. This may help you to understand where I am coming from on what I said that seems to have upset you:
I said... "He could list all reasons in 1 comment which several of us have done previously, but going by replies from you and MTG, either you wont read it all or wont understand it anyway. So your being spoon fed reasons."
The "wont read it" part is at MTG who has admitted that he hasnt got the time to read all the comments.
The "wont understand it" part is at you both. Due to MTG admitting not to have been reading our comments, he has missunderstood many things that we have said. He has responded to many comments to us through his selective reading. As you know, you miss points when you dont read the whole comment. You yourself Prem couldnt understand (by your own admission) what we were getting at with that Norway clip. We had to explain to you a few times why that clip was used and im still not convinced that you understand. You also showed you didnt understand that Tiger wasnt making his decision based on the sugar issue. You said to him that wasnt enough to leave the EU and that he should be seeing the bigger pitcure - not just 1 company. But it is very clear that he was using it as 1 of many reasons to leave and not the sole reason. If you go by his previous comments throughout this thread, he has given many reasons to leave, not just the sugar issue. You clearly thought that was his only reason to leave going by your reply to him. That reply showed you didnt understand that. The fact that I have had to explain this to you too is showing a lack of understanding. Which is why my comment "wont read it or wont understand it" was applied.
Also the "spoon fed" comment from me was to provide the point that it was just 1 of many reason Tiger was voting leave. It really isnt rocket science Prem.

I have no wish to offend you. I have no wish to start "slanging" with you. A debate is great. I just wished those debating with us actually paid attention to what we are saying. And by the way, I am the one who have received insults here and a threat too. Also yet to receive an apology for it either. There if any of us got a reason to complain about "slanging match" its not you, its me.

Thank you for reading it all (if you have ) and thank you for understanding my point here (if you have )

 

[tiger-emyrs-wolf]

That is really not a good reason to leave - we have to consider the global big picture for decades to come, not one company...

I am thinking globally like africa which the EU is holding back so I'd rather think 200+ nations rather than just 28

 

[Captain Jack Sparrow]

So are you saying that we pay too much into the EU or that the EU doesn't help countries enough with finance?

I am saying we dont get enough out of the EU for what we put in. We have a deficit with them. I am also saying thast the EU didnt have to be so strict on Greece and can amend things that will lift some burden on them. The EU are punishing Greece for what they have done but the punishment is hurting the innocent people more than anyone.

 

[wizered]

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[Mind the gap!]

A leading Bristol employer Airbus has said

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[Premiershiporbust IV]

"Semantics".. they appear to be the Stay campaigns style.

And again you miss the point about the video, so I suggest you watch it this time and absorb the detail of the scaremongering on there, the point is it is identical to the scaremongering used here.

IE: complete bullshit and lies....

Popped home for lunch...

To expand this point, I don' think that it is in dispute that EVERYONE has agreed we don't really know what will happen if we do Brexit.

So, other than "it's all bullshit and scare stories, we will be just fine" what is the Brexit plan if in fact, the scare stories turn out to be true and we find difficulty in trading with some (the EU for starters) and the economy falters.

Having been on the "leave" campaigns site, there does not appear to be a detailed plan as to what measures will be taken in this eventuality, the whole campaign appears to be predicated on us saving £8 billion a year (0.275% of current GDP) and that everything will be fine, lets be free, never mind what it does to the country.

The words, "imagine", "confident" and "unthinkable" appear but in the Q&A section, the (imagined) worse case scenario of a 2.2% drop in GDP is dismissed as insignificant. but hang on, that is over £60 billion whereas we will be able to put the £8 billion (net) that we save into the NHS, so who is going to fund the £50 billion shortfall then.

Answer, we are. The public services that everyone complains about will deteriorate even further and far from having more spent on it, the NHS will be subject to further, savage cuts... But we won't have all the immigrants draining it..? I have news, it is the OAP's living longer and getting more and more meds that is the real crippler for the NHS. I know how much my 85 year old Mum's op was because the consultant told me (scary) plus she now takes 8 different tablets a day, Dad takes 9, there is the real cause of the NHS problem,,,

The Leave campaign argument is also predicated on us retaining access to the EU free market. - WHY, WHY WOULD THEY DO THAT...? we would not be in it any more so why does anyone in their right mind think that they will give us access - NOT GOING TO HAPPEN

Gut instinct and common sense tells me that Brexit would be a catastrophy of biblical proportions but the more I read about the Leave campaign, the more I know that they haven't actually got a plan if it all goes tits up.

Scare stories...? Common sense more like

Brexit is lunacy, plain and simple. (out now until 9pm)