Derby going into admin

[FellTop]

The EFL tests don't seem too thorough do they.

The owner would have probably sailed through the tests as he was very well off when he took over. It is the decisions taken during his tenure that have led here. Mind you to rumour mill is other clubs are now having a knock on the door for the same thing.

 

[FellTop]

I was talking to someone last night about this. They said only 2 teams in the last 10 years have been promoted to the premier league without breaching EFL FFP rules. The problem is once there the EFL dont have jurisdiction apparently. Although I do recall Leicester settling a fine because they broke the rules in their promotion season

The thing I find puzzling is why the EFL are always a season behind. There are ways other than annual accounts to see a clubs financial position. Clubs should really be forced into producing quarterly forecasts so early indicators exist. Mind you Leicester would never have won the premier league if that were the case.

 

[Dancingstripes]

MSD?

Are these the same guys that came close to being involved in us?

 

[Smug in Boots]

When I’d heard MSD were into them I felt it would only be a matter of time. I get the feeling they are like vultures circling.

I think we as feels will feel quite lucky they did t get involved in SAFC.

Clubs turn to people like MSD when they're already in dire straits so you're quite right to have thought that. This was actually Dell, giving a high interest loan, whereas FFP didn't involve Dell and was intended as a purchase of the club, Glenn Fuhrman was the driving force to buy Sunderland. Derby, Southampton and Burnley all have loans from MSD although the Burnley situation is more complicated. Southampton are paying back around £8m a year in interest alone.

FFP and MSD are two different entities but, it's fair to say, I feel much happier with KLD than I would with either of those.

FFP wanted to own SAFC but, it would seem, came to realise that loaning money was a safer idea. It brings in multi-millions and they'll probably end up with a club for peanuts by default. 'Burnley' have mortgaged the ground to MSD for around £60m and Southampton have mortgaged their ground and other assets for around £80m. Now that Derby, who have borrowed around £50m at a guess, have gone into admin it looks like MSD could become owners for the cost of the loan unless someone else steps in to buy the club. 'Derby', from memory, mortgaged the ground then the training ground when the first loan ran out. When I say Derby took out the loan I believe it's actually the company that bought the stadium which is really messy imo.

It's all sad and worrying, as you say we should thank our lucky stars we have the owner we do.

 

[Dancingstripes]

Clubs turn to people like MSD when they're already in dire straits so you're quite right to have thought that. This was actually Dell, giving a high interest loan, whereas FFP didn't involve Dell and was intended as a purchase of the club, Glenn Fuhrman was the driving force to buy Sunderland. Derby, Southampton and Burnley all have loans from MSD although the Burnley situation is more complicated. Southampton are paying back around £8m a year in interest alone.

FFP and MSD are two different entities but, it's fair to say, I feel much happier with KLD than I would with either of those.

FFP wanted to own SAFC but, it would seem, came to realise that loaning money was a safer idea. It brings in multi-millions and they'll probably end up with a club for peanuts by default. 'Burnley' have mortgaged the ground to MSD for around £60m and Southampton have mortgaged their ground and other assets for around £80m. Now that Derby, who have borrowed around £50m at a guess, have gone into admin it looks like MSD could become owners for the cost of the loan unless someone else steps in to buy the club. 'Derby', from memory, mortgaged the ground then the training ground when the first loan ran out. When I say Derby took out the loan I believe it's actually the company that bought the stadium which is really messy imo.

It's all sad and worrying, as you say we should thank our lucky stars we have the owner we do.

“If people choose to believe a group of American billionaires have nothing better to do than loan a few million to a club on the NE cost of England, they have no involvement with, that's fine with me.

Personally I find the idea ludicrous”



Oooops.

 

[Smug in Boots]

“If people choose to believe a group of American billionaires have nothing better to do than loan a few million to a club on the NE cost of England, they have no involvement with, that's fine with me.

Personally I find the idea ludicrous”



Oooops.

Different time, different circumstances.

And this isn't a few million, its vast amounts of money. FPP wanted to buy SAFC, MSD are acting as a lender at interest rates 7 or 8 times bank rates.

FPP and MSD are different entities with different aims.

At that time I was answering endless drivel from you like this,

"The more Charlie talks, the more you realise that they didn't eye us up, we eyed them up. I still think there's a chance, but it's more likely that Donald pays this loan off in 18 months time."

Oops.

 

[Dancingstripes]

Different time, different circumstances.

And this isn't a few million, its vast amounts of money. FPP wanted to buy SAFC, MSD are acting as a lender at interest rates 7 or 8 times bank rates.

FPP and MSD are different entities with different aims.

At that time I was answering endless drivel from you like this,

"The more Charlie talks, the more you realise that they didn't eye us up, we eyed them up. I still think there's a chance, but it's more likely that Donald pays this loan off in 18 months time."

Oops.

You got it all wrong mate.

It was only ever a loan, and you still can’t admit it.

 

[Sunderpitt]

Different time, different circumstances.

And this isn't a few million, its vast amounts of money. FPP wanted to buy SAFC, MSD are acting as a lender at interest rates 7 or 8 times bank rates.

FPP and MSD are different entities with different aims.

And an old respected club like Derby, has come a cropper. It is a great shame.


A similar fate befell Glascow Rangers, the owners of which could not afford to keep the club going at the rate they were spending. It looks as if Barcelona are in a similar position.

The mags do not realise how lucky they are with Ashley... he is keeping them solvent, financially viable...and can afford to bail them out if a cash hole opens up.

I also reckon we had a narrow escape with Donald, he could not have afforded to keep Sunderland as a going concern. KLD has been our proverbial White Knight!

 

[FellTop]

And an old respected club like Derby, has come a cropper. It is a great shame.


A similar fate befell Glascow Rangers, the owners of which could not afford to keep the club going at the rate they were spending. It looks as if Barcelona are in a similar position.

The mags do not realise how lucky they are with Ashley... he is keeping them solvent, financially viable...and can afford to bail them out if a cash hole opens up.

I also reckon we had a narrow escape with Donald, he could not have afforded to keep Sunderland as a going concern. KLD has been our proverbial White Knight!

Good points mate. Football is perhaps at the biggest cliff edge it has ever been at right now. Derby are the tip of the iceberg in this country. Barcelona, like you say, are in a massive hole. Imagine the ripples if they actually go under.

One of the things I think needs to change is how clubs are goverened month to month. I sometimes look at boards of directors and ask who is acting as your handbrake. I think the fit and proper person test is fine in principle but needs extending to the governance structure of a club. And not the EFL to police it. Football could do far worse than collectively appoint external auditors whose job it is every 6 months to report on the sustainability of the club. This would be seperate to clubs own accountants and auditors. It would allow apples to be compared to apples and create a sort of league table of healthy clubs. Obviously owners wont like it but something needs to give. There are genuine lads round here, 40 year season ticket holders at Derby, who are devasted. They are not vanity fans who want to get to the prem to see Chelsea, they want their club to be there for them on a Saturday. They deserve somebody looking out for them.

 

[Smug in Boots]

You got it all wrong mate.

It was only ever a loan, and you still can’t admit it.

The original offer was a purchase, the loan was with a view to a default purchase just as they've done with Burnley, Southampton and Derby ...

... the situation, for them, is huge earnings on interest and becoming owners if all goes wrong for the current regime.

Either way they're in a win win situation.

Donald was incapable of either carrying on or paying the loan back, you got it all wrong

 

[sad-eyed prophet]

The original offer was a purchase, the loan was with a view to a default purchase just as they've done with Burnley, Southampton and Derby ...

... the situation, for them, is huge earnings on interest and becoming owners if all goes wrong for the current regime.

Either way they're in a win win situation.

Donald was incapable of either carrying on or paying the loan back, you got it all wrong

This is the bit I have difficulty in understanding. If anyone provides a loan to a club,taking the ground as security,and the club default on the loan, and the lender thus takes possession of the ground........what do they think they are going to be able to do with it? Knock it down and build housing? Is that the plan in their business model?

 

[Guy Incognito]

This is the bit I have difficulty in understanding. If anyone provides a loan to a club,taking the ground as security,and the club default on the loan, and the lender thus takes possession of the ground........what do they think they are going to be able to do with it? Knock it down and build housing? Is that the plan in their business model?

It's an asset mate, just like owning any property. If the stadium is worth £50million, it's a £50 million asset they didn't have before. They can charge rent for it to be used or look to develop if the club goes under and no one else wants to play there, or flog it on themselves to someone else.

 

[Smug in Boots]

This is the bit I have difficulty in understanding. If anyone provides a loan to a club,taking the ground as security,and the club default on the loan, and the lender thus takes possession of the ground........what do they think they are going to be able to do with it? Knock it down and build housing? Is that the plan in their business model?

That's a good point.

The new owners of the ground can charge rent to the club or, as you say, develop the land. Alternatively they could start a brand new club I suppose ...

... it's all horrendous for the average supporter isn't it.

We had decades of ups and downs, at Sunderland, but you never thought we could go bust or be thrown out of the ground ....

.... now anything could happen.

 

[Porterfield73]

MSD was, and is a money -making machine, who saw a football country (england) with a lot of distressed assets (clubs in financial trouble) and realised they could cherry pick clubs which, with a very small investment, they could probably aquire by default .so they began 'helping' some of these clubs with investment loans. My theory is that they deliberately created FPP as a seperate entity to avoid a monopoly scenario, and to create some healthy competition, albeit in-house so to speak. I don't believe any of the bullshit about FPP being interested in any benevolent philanthropy aimed at the region or city, they were into SAFC for a quick killing, which is exactly what they achieved. a wolf in sheeps clothing still smells of wolf.

 

[Sunderpitt]

As was explained to me on another post, the mags do not own there own ground. So if they went bust, I reckon the owner of the land could sell it for a huge profit.

I have not been to the new Brentford ground, its now beside a railway and a pub called the Express that I used to frequent. However it was always obvious that there old ground Griffin Park would be worth a lot. The likes of Elvis Costello lived nearby in a desirable spot called the Butts.

One ground that I can think of that is not profitable for development, is Anfield, probably why they are just going to expand it... The Yank owner cannot extract any cash that way.

 

[Smug in Boots]

MSD was, and is a money -making machine, who saw a football country (england) with a lot of distressed assets (clubs in financial trouble) and realised they could cherry pick clubs which, with a very small investment, they could probably aquire by default .so they began 'helping' some of these clubs with investment loans. My theory is that they deliberately created FPP as a seperate entity to avoid a monopoly scenario, and to create some healthy competition, albeit in-house so to speak. I don't believe any of the bullshit about FPP being interested in any benevolent philanthropy aimed at the region or city, they were into SAFC for a quick killing, which is exactly what they achieved. a wolf in sheeps clothing still smells of wolf.

In all honesty mate I can swear Glenn Furhman wanted to buy Sunderland and is a match going football person.

I'm sure he's also interested in money, despite already having more than he could ever spend.

 

[one gary owers]

I remember Bob being slathered at the time for not investing in the team. We are reaping the benefit now. Foresight over short term fix wins. Incidentally, I saw him and his wife ( I assume) at Seaburn Morrisons a few weeks before the end of his last season. She was drop dead gorgeous.

pics please

 

[Dancingstripes]

The original offer was a purchase, the loan was with a view to a default purchase just as they've done with Burnley, Southampton and Derby ...

... the situation, for them, is huge earnings on interest and becoming owners if all goes wrong for the current regime.

Either way they're in a win win situation.

Donald was incapable of either carrying on or paying the loan back, you got it all wrong

But you always said they wasn’t interested in loans?

 

[Smug in Boots]

But you always said they wasn’t interested in loans?

ffs man, it's midnight and this is all you have to think about ...

... things have changed, grow up and get a new hobby.

BTW you mean weren't

 

[Dancingstripes]

ffs man, it's midnight and this is all you have to think about ...

... things have changed, grow up and get a new hobby.

BTW you mean weren't

Makes you wonder if you were really ITK at all