Off Topic Brexit

[Warmir Pouchov]

Re-visiting general elections is only done after the results of the first one have been implemented. I don't think anyone has stated we would be unable to re-apply to be part of the EU. We voted to leave so lets get that done and restore some faith in the political system. I have very little after the last 3 years. Once that is done, lets see what happens. If need to re-apply then so be it. Both parties may find they were better off with each other afterall. The drama created by the bitter remainers was entertaining for about a week. Its time we got to work with a clear plan of how we exit the EU. To be starting this 3 years on is embarrassing enough. The fragmented approach has seen some of the work done, but not fully committed to and certainly not co-ordinated.

Basically lets finally get this done. Get a proposal together for a deal we would accept, present it to the EU. If they don't accept then we leave.

 

[Albert's Chip Shop]

We have debated this quite a bit. After this post, I am going to stop. This is not an attempt to say that you are not worth talking to. You make interesting points.

With respect to "the people" not having requested a second vote, there is no method for them to do so. Nonetheless, they have created a few. 5 million signatures were received by a petition on the subject. There are arguments about the possibity of multiple signatures. That applies to all online petitions. No leave petition has managed anything similar. Several hundred thousand people marched for a second vote. This is many times the number who have joined any leave March. More people just voted for parties demanding a second vote than those advocating Brexit.

With respect to your second point, on what basis do you say that voters did not intend to see what the best deal we could get was and then decide ? The question they were allowed to vote on was simplistic. The voters were given only the crudest options. That doesn't mean that their intentions were similarly crude. Seeing what the best offer is and then deciding is an elementary negotiating strategy. I think you do the voters a disservice if you assume it was beyond them.

The fact that your father in law regards the will of the people in the past as more sacred than the will of the people now is, meaning no disrespect, a quirk of his personality which should not be allowed to affect my future, or my children's.

Oh, and while the economic argument is one strong factor for remain voters, it is not the essence of the debate. It is for me and many others about embracing the world or rejecting it.

A lot of those signatures were from russian bots and multiple email accounts and Therein votes for one person.

 

[AgentofAlnwick]

3 years on from referendum that should never have taken place for prettty much every reason I can think of. No real discussion of what type of Brexit leavers wanted (realistically or otherwise). 3 years and no further forward, yet the unicorns continue to play in Eden. Those supporting Brexit in the name of democracy are doing quite the opposite.
Do I want a second referendum? No, I want to see a general election with the decimation of the Tories, the humiliation of Labour and the revocation of Article 50.

 

[Magnet]

3 years on from referendum that should never have taken place for prettty much every reason I can think of. No real discussion of what type of Brexit leavers wanted (realistically or otherwise). 3 years and no further forward, yet the unicorns continue to play in Eden. Those supporting Brexit in the name of democracy are doing quite the opposite.
Do I want a second referendum? No, I want to see a general election with the decimation of the Tories, the humiliation of Labour and the revocation of Article 50.

We’ll put you down as a don’t know then.

 

[AgentofAlnwick]

We’ll put you down as a don’t know then.

Yes, well, I genuinely cannot think of one decent, reasoned argument for leaving the E.U. It's far from perfect but the alternative seems so much worse on all levels. Now this whole Brexit charade has created a peculiar hysteria. We're just witnessing and participating in a sort of Tory Gurning Championship (no contest, the repulsive Boris wins every time). And how on earth is Corbyn the Labour leader? How can people vote for such a nakedly populist man with one policy (Farage)?
I get that we've been let down by every government for the past 55 years. I totally get that the regions, especially Northumberland and Durham, have been starved of investment, hope and equity. But how in God's name is leaving the E.U going to address this?

 

[Warmir Pouchov]

Yes, well, I genuinely cannot think of one decent, reasoned argument for leaving the E.U. It's far from perfect but the alternative seems so much worse on all levels. Now this whole Brexit charade has created a peculiar hysteria. We're just witnessing and participating in a sort of Tory Gurning Championship (no contest, the repulsive Boris wins every time). And how on earth is Corbyn the Labour leader? How can people vote for such a nakedly populist man with one policy (Farage)?
I get that we've been let down by every government for the past 55 years. I totally get that the regions, especially Northumberland and Durham, have been starved of investment, hope and equity. But how in God's name is leaving the E.U going to address this?

People didn't vote to leave because they are disillusioned with the government for the past 55 years. They voted to leave because they believe we will be better off outside the EU having weighed up all the pros and cons.

I know remainers want to impose reasoning on leavers for why they came to the decision they did but they need to accept they can't. Its not disillusionment, its not racism or the far right. They want to leave because they think it is best for the UK.

 

[Mick O'Toon]

People didn't vote to leave because they are disillusioned with the government for the past 55 years. They voted to leave because they believe we will be better off outside the EU having weighed up all the pros and cons.

I know remainers want to impose reasoning on leavers for why they came to the decision they did but they need to accept they can't. Its not disillusionment, its not racism or the far right. They want to leave because they think it is best for the UK.

And don't forget the £350m a week the NHS will get once you leave.

 

[Warmir Pouchov]

And don't forget the £350m a week the NHS will get once you leave.

Certainly part of the pros and cons assessment for some. Some will have believed that line. Some won't but will have still voted leave. They all go into the pot, and at the end you have a Great British BREXIT Stew. I think some of the remainers that went into the pot have turned the taste of the stew bitter though.

 

[haslam]

You’re now trying to move the goalposts after the event. I can’t remember this being the remain position prior to the first referendum and I voted remain. This has only been introduced after the event by some remainers not for the reasons now being advanced but simply because they lost.

You know fine well there are numerous potential versions of Brexit and the second referendum will simply be an attempt to split that vote so that Brexit doesn’t occur. It hasn’t been the people stopping Brexit it has been the politicians because they don’t want it and never expected the people to vote for it in the first place.

If a second referendum was simply to say which of two or more versions of Brexit should we take then I would support it but not if an option included remain. That would fly against what the people decided to do in the first referendum and that would be undemocratic.

We don’t have a second General Election quickly after a General Election just because politicians promised one thing in a campaign and then didn’t deliver it, so why on this issue when anyone with half a brain could see that Leave campaigners couldn’t guarantee whatever they promised because it would have to be negotiated with an EU that wouldn’t want us to leave on good terms as that could cause a domino effect.

Aside from all other points only a buffoon would put forward the referendum in that manner. It wouldn't be hard to have 2-3 versions of Brexit on ballott paper but that every one of them counts as a vote for Brexit (so it isn't split against Remain) and then if 50%+ voted in favour of Brexit overall you could then look at what percent of the voters went for which type. If you thought people were smart enough you could also split the Remain part so that there was a back-up of "if the majority is in favour of Brexit what type would you prefer?" as I suspect most of the population would vote for a soft Brexit either through voting Brexit (mild) or Remain (but if majority say leave then can we have soft Brexit please) and it would give a clearer mandate to the government and be the closest thing to uniting the country. The issue is mainly that whatever is done half the country will feel like it has been ignored.

 

[Magnet]

Aside from all other points only a buffoon would put forward the referendum in that manner. It wouldn't be hard to have 2-3 versions of Brexit on ballott paper but that every one of them counts as a vote for Brexit (so it isn't split against Remain) and then if 50%+ voted in favour of Brexit overall you could then look at what percent of the voters went for which type. If you thought people were smart enough you could also split the Remain part so that there was a back-up of "if the majority is in favour of Brexit what type would you prefer?" as I suspect most of the population would vote for a soft Brexit either through voting Brexit (mild) or Remain (but if majority say leave then can we have soft Brexit please) and it would give a clearer mandate to the government and be the closest thing to uniting the country. The issue is mainly that whatever is done half the country will feel like it has been ignored.

You are talking about a country who had a referendum asking leave or stay.

 

[Pinksnake]

You are talking about a country who had a referendum asking leave or stay.

And lied to

 

[Darren Peacock’s Ponytail]

And lied to

Bastardy remainers

 

[Pinksnake]

Bastardy remainers

No need for that everyone has a right to their opinion mate and I'm just saying many voted leave under the false impression that were given regarding the small matter of the NHS.

They keep banging on about the will of the people, but its actually no longer the will of many people and frankly when did they ever give a **** about the people!

The other thing these people keep raming up my arse is the term taking back control of outer borders!! Who's borders arevwe talking about here I dont own any outside my front lawn

 

[Darren Peacock’s Ponytail]

No need for that everyone has a right to their opinion mate and I'm just saying many voted leave under the false impression that were given regarding the small matter of the NHS.

They keep banging on about the will of the people, but its actually no longer the will of many people and frankly when did they ever give a **** about the people!

The other thing these people keep raming up my arse is the term taking back control of outer borders!! Who's borders arevwe talking about here I dont own any outside my front lawn

You missed my point.

 

[Pinksnake]

You missed my point.

That's because I'm an idiot mate

 

[Warmir Pouchov]

No need for that everyone has a right to their opinion mate and I'm just saying many voted leave under the false impression that were given regarding the small matter of the NHS.

They keep banging on about the will of the people, but its actually no longer the will of many people and frankly when did they ever give a **** about the people!

The other thing these people keep raming up my arse is the term taking back control of outer borders!! Who's borders arevwe talking about here I dont own any outside my front lawn

Not really. Some will have but the vast majority just don't want to be part of the EU having assessed all the pros and cons.

 

[Freddd]

Not really. Some will have but the vast majority just don't want to be part of the EU having assessed all the pros and cons.

Ah, another person who knows what the people believed and what they meant. No need to ask them to speak for themselves then.

 

[Warmir Pouchov]

Ah, another person who knows what the people believed and what they meant. No need to ask them to speak for themselves then.

Whats good for the goose...

 

[Pinksnake]

Not really. Some will have but the vast majority just don't want to be part of the EU having assessed all the pros and cons.

The word many is key

 

[Warmir Pouchov]

Ah, another person who knows what the people believed and what they meant. No need to ask them to speak for themselves then.

So what are you suggesting that people voted on? We were asked a pretty straightforward question weren't we?

Do you want to be in the EU or not?