Off Topic Brexit

[mickeybnufc]

I wasn't trying to imply anything. I was trying to say what I meant. I will give it another go.

I said that I thought that very large part of the Leave vote was an emotional response against what is generally referred to in Brexit discussions as the elite

You regarded that as disrespectful and said that the main factor was a concern about the loss of sovereignty which is inherent in belonging to a supranational organisation.

I said that it would be an unusually well educated and sophisticated electorate who had a reasoned constitutional basis for their vote. I noted that the Leave voters were demographically less than averagely well educated. I therefore suggested that you were ascribing more sophisticated reasoning to the Leave voters than was probably the case.

I purposely avoided any comment on intelligence. There is some correlation between education and intelligence but, as you note, there are smart, poorly educated people and some well educated people who are thick in a number of ways. Intelligence itself has a number of aspects. My main point was that in analysing the motivations of a group of voters (and this would include the somewhat demographically better educated Remain voters and just about any other electorate that you are likely to encounter), it is misleading to take the polished positions that the spokespeople put forward as being very representative of the motivations of the voters. Therefore, I think "**** the 'experts' and the twats they work for" is more likely to have been behind a leave vote that an analysis of the cost/benefits of belonging to a supranational organisation. In the same way, I expect "things are fine, change is scary" was a larger motivating factor in the average remain voter than having performed the same cost benefit analysis but come to a different conclusion.

Put differently, I have run into many people who will argue about Brexit with a lot of emotion and almost no logic. I have run into next to no one that can argue about it with just logic and without emotion. It is fundamentally an emotional subject and peoples positions with respect to it are primarily emotionally driven. My primary emotional response one is rage/hurt at being cut off from a host of places I'd like to call home. I also try to be logical about the process but the degree to which logic steers my position I frankly don't know.

Well I know 600 odd, very well educated people who's logic and discussions have totally and utterly f***ed up the will and majority of the people

 

[Freddd]

Well I know 600 odd, very well educated people who's logic and discussions have totally and utterly f***ed up the will and majority of the people

let's ask the people again, then

 

[Warmir Pouchov]

I wasn't trying to imply anything. I was trying to say what I meant. I will give it another go.

I said that I thought that very large part of the Leave vote was an emotional response against what is generally referred to in Brexit discussions as the elite

You regarded that as disrespectful and said that the main factor was a concern about the loss of sovereignty which is inherent in belonging to a supranational organisation.

I said that it would be an unusually well educated and sophisticated electorate who had a reasoned constitutional basis for their vote. I noted that the Leave voters were demographically less than averagely well educated. I therefore suggested that you were ascribing more sophisticated reasoning to the Leave voters than was probably the case.

I purposely avoided any comment on intelligence. There is some correlation between education and intelligence but, as you note, there are smart, poorly educated people and some well educated people who are thick in a number of ways. Intelligence itself has a number of aspects. My main point was that in analysing the motivations of a group of voters (and this would include the somewhat demographically better educated Remain voters and just about any other electorate that you are likely to encounter), it is misleading to take the polished positions that the spokespeople put forward as being very representative of the motivations of the voters. Therefore, I think "**** the 'experts' and the twats they work for" is more likely to have been behind a leave vote that an analysis of the cost/benefits of belonging to a supranational organisation. In the same way, I expect "things are fine, change is scary" was a larger motivating factor in the average remain voter than having performed the same cost benefit analysis but come to a different conclusion.

Put differently, I have run into many people who will argue about Brexit with a lot of emotion and almost no logic. I have run into next to no one that can argue about it with just logic and without emotion. It is fundamentally an emotional subject and peoples positions with respect to it are primarily emotionally driven. My primary emotional response one is rage/hurt at being cut off from a host of places I'd like to call home. I also try to be logical about the process but the degree to which logic steers my position I frankly don't know.

I can't agree on the "**** the experts etc" and I still don't think you've presented anything that changes that viewpoint for me. You mention putting the polished positions the spokespeople put forward. However you have to ask yourself why they campaigned on that reasoning. I think they were simply latching onto something that had been sat there dormant for a very long time. We have never sat happily inside the EU as a government, a people, from the day we entered. It has always had a large element of people who don't think we belong in it. I assumed that we all knew that all along. I probably thought they were not in a majority, it turns out I was wrong.

I can only comment on the people I've spoken to, and generally they dispel the myth that they were influenced by campaign promises, that they are racist or xenophobic, that leave voters are a bit thick and don't know what they voted for. Its these very lazy assertions which I have a problem with. I think it is far easier to listen to what people say. Granted out of the 17m odd who voted to leave, I can't speak to every single one of them. I couldn't say how many leave supporters I've spoken to about Brexit over the last 3 years, but I have to say those that I have, very few have uttered the phrases or anything like them you mention as a reason. They may say it in combination with their reasoning, because politicians and their elitism are rightly castigated by just about all. Generally what I find is the people who make that comment in isolation, just don't vote and didn't vote in the EU decision. Why? They are so turned off by politics and politicians, they hold the view that their vote doesn't matter so why bother.

 

[Warmir Pouchov]

let's ask the people again, then

I can't see how that's necessary. As Mickey says, we just need the 600 very well educated people to carry out the will of the majority of the people. Unfortunately they've been too busy with self serving and using the process for political positioning.

 

[Warmir Pouchov]

The subject of elitism has been raised within this thread. My overriding feeling following all this is that we need radical political reform in this country. It has never been more apparent that the system in use is archaic and outdated. It has also never been more apparent that people within that system are morally corrupt. We can't do it now or even in the very near future but we urgently need reform. We hold onto traditions as humans, and take nostalgic looks back. Unfortunately this can eventually be to our detriment. We've allowed the elitist little club to get away with murder for far too long. I think the one thing that remain and leave should unite on is the need for long term change in how we govern ourselves. Its going to be more important than ever outside the EU.

Unfortunately for it to be a success, this would need to be a root and branch exercise, with the script ripped up and started again. For sure we can build on some of the good, but unfortunately too much of the bad now has this country hamstrung. We need to hold our politicians to higher standards. We've seen this for far too long. I remember reading about Ian Lavery as it is local to me. You would think his misdemeanors would lead to him being ostracised and persona non grata. Far from it, Corbyn installed him as a chairman of the labour party to replace Tom Watson. You have the expenses scandal. There are just so many examples its sickening, and its why there is an undercurrent of anti establishment feeling always sitting underneath the political system.

 

[Lord Jonjomort]

https://www.google.co.uk/amp/s/psma...-a-cowardly-ruling-class-brought-down-england

 

[Lord Jonjomort]

Best and most accurate thing I’ve read on it.

Great analogy - brexit is like being inside a burning house and blocking the only exit are two rich twats, one red one blue and whom everyone hates, saying “me first”.

 

[Lord Jonjomort]

The subject of elitism has been raised within this thread. My overriding feeling following all this is that we need radical political reform in this country. It has never been more apparent that the system in use is archaic and outdated. It has also never been more apparent that people within that system are morally corrupt. We can't do it now or even in the very near future but we urgently need reform. We hold onto traditions as humans, and take nostalgic looks back. Unfortunately this can eventually be to our detriment. We've allowed the elitist little club to get away with murder for far too long. I think the one thing that remain and leave should unite on is the need for long term change in how we govern ourselves. Its going to be more important than ever outside the EU.

Unfortunately for it to be a success, this would need to be a root and branch exercise, with the script ripped up and started again. For sure we can build on some of the good, but unfortunately too much of the bad now has this country hamstrung. We need to hold our politicians to higher standards. We've seen this for far too long. I remember reading about Ian Lavery as it is local to me. You would think his misdemeanors would lead to him being ostracised and persona non grata. Far from it, Corbyn installed him as a chairman of the labour party to replace Tom Watson. You have the expenses scandal. There are just so many examples its sickening, and its why there is an undercurrent of anti establishment feeling always sitting underneath the political system.

I think the burning question is how do we do It, where do you start?

 

[Warmir Pouchov]

I think the burning question is how do we do It, where do you start?

That is for far more intelligent people than me to decide. However I'm sure there are countless examples world wide to take some pointers from. We have intelligence aplenty in this country. The problem is reform would require no involvement from the current establishment as they will corrupt the process to circle it back round to their benefit. They are also deeply linked the law makers.

So in answer to your question, I don't have the first clue because we've made the very people we need rid of too powerful.

 

[Dorty Dogbreath]

Regarding education, Jezza has only two E-grade A level passes to his name. Clearly he doesn't have the credentials to decide our Brexit fate let alone run the country

 

[Freddd]

That is for far more intelligent people than me to decide. However I'm sure there are countless examples world wide to take some pointers from. We have intelligence aplenty in this country. The problem is reform would require no involvement from the current establishment as they will corrupt the process to circle it back round to their benefit. They are also deeply linked the law makers.

So in answer to your question, I don't have the first clue because we've made the very people we need rid of too powerful.

I am not sure what part of the world has these better systems. Where did you have in mind ?

 

[Freddd]

I can't agree on the "**** the experts etc" and I still don't think you've presented anything that changes that viewpoint for me. You mention putting the polished positions the spokespeople put forward. However you have to ask yourself why they campaigned on that reasoning. I think they were simply latching onto something that had been sat there dormant for a very long time. We have never sat happily inside the EU as a government, a people, from the day we entered. It has always had a large element of people who don't think we belong in it. I assumed that we all knew that all along. I probably thought they were not in a majority, it turns out I was wrong.

I can only comment on the people I've spoken to, and generally they dispel the myth that they were influenced by campaign promises, that they are racist or xenophobic, that leave voters are a bit thick and don't know what they voted for. Its these very lazy assertions which I have a problem with. I think it is far easier to listen to what people say. Granted out of the 17m odd who voted to leave, I can't speak to every single one of them. I couldn't say how many leave supporters I've spoken to about Brexit over the last 3 years, but I have to say those that I have, very few have uttered the phrases or anything like them you mention as a reason. They may say it in combination with their reasoning, because politicians and their elitism are rightly castigated by just about all. Generally what I find is the people who make that comment in isolation, just don't vote and didn't vote in the EU decision. Why? They are so turned off by politics and politicians, they hold the view that their vote doesn't matter so why bother.

First, thanks for a refreshingly thoughtful and polite discussion of the subject.

With respect to the relative importance of reason and emotion in voting processes, we disagree and there is no way I can think of to settle the issue. I will just mention that I wasn't suggesting leavers will actually say out loud anything like "**** the experts" any more than a remainder will say "change is scary"
We can all hear that this sounds silly so we make up something that sounds better. I just believe (though can't prove) that the decisions are made at an emotional level and dressed up aftwrwards.

 

[Warmir Pouchov]

I am not sure what part of the world has these better systems. Where did you have in mind ?

As I say that is for far more intelligent people than me. All I know without any shadow of a doubt, is the system in this country is outdated, being far too easily abused on a daily basis, and is set up to look after the elite. If we can't piggyback on another governance system from elsewhere, use the intelligence available to start working on a new one. One thing for certain is this one is not fit for purpose and is populated by people in the main who do not have this country's interest's at heart. I'm sure many of them got into for the right reasons and have simply been corrupted by the archaic elite serving set up.

I don't see it happening at all. The elite have managed to keep the gravy train running long before any of us existed. I'm sure they and theirs will find a way to do so in the future.

I can't believe that outside of those inside it, anyone would try to defend what is happening. Actions always speak far louder than words, and their actions suggest strongly they are morally corrupt arseholes acting for their own interests.

 

[jimileysbaldhead]

As I say that is for far more intelligent people than me. All I know without any shadow of a doubt, is the system in this country is outdated, being far too easily abused on a daily basis, and is set up to look after the elite. If we can't piggyback on another governance system from elsewhere, use the intelligence available to start working on a new one. One thing for certain is this one is not fit for purpose and is populated by people in the main who do not have this country's interest's at heart. I'm sure many of them got into for the right reasons and have simply been corrupted by the archaic elite serving set up.

I don't see it happening at all. The elite have managed to keep the gravy train running long before any of us existed. I'm sure they and theirs will find a way to do so in the future.

I can't believe that outside of those inside it, anyone would try to defend what is happening. Actions always speak far louder than words, and their actions suggest strongly they are morally corrupt arseholes acting for their own interests.

Ah....that's reason I waited 4 f@cking hours in the p!ssing rain at the bottom of the M11 yesterday having had a puncture on the A14, changing to the f@cking space saver and that bastard blowing out as well as I approached London.
I shan't be on here for a while as I've just received an email questionnaire from the RAC about how I rated their service.
F@cking Brexit.

 

[Freddd]

As I say that is for far more intelligent people than me. All I know without any shadow of a doubt, is the system in this country is outdated, being far too easily abused on a daily basis, and is set up to look after the elite. If we can't piggyback on another governance system from elsewhere, use the intelligence available to start working on a new one. One thing for certain is this one is not fit for purpose and is populated by people in the main who do not have this country's interest's at heart. I'm sure many of them got into for the right reasons and have simply been corrupted by the archaic elite serving set up.

I don't see it happening at all. The elite have managed to keep the gravy train running long before any of us existed. I'm sure they and theirs will find a way to do so in the future.

I can't believe that outside of those inside it, anyone would try to defend what is happening. Actions always speak far louder than words, and their actions suggest strongly they are morally corrupt arseholes acting for their own interests.

I don't think changing the system is going to help. The parliamentary democratic system is, in my view, better than the presidential system. Those are the only serious contenders that I am aware of for running any modern country.

The problem isn't with the system, it is with the people elected into that system. Theresa May and Jeremy Corbyn are two particularly unqualified leaders. They would have muddled on in normal circumstances. Unfortunately for us, they were the people in charge when a problem requiring actual statesmen, or at least skilful politicians, occured. Theresa May mishandled the process horrifically. Corbyn stood back and hoped that he could capitalise on her ineptitude to secure a general election. With neither leader willing to lead, the House of Commons is trying to do so. That's not really its job but there isn't anyone else.

The one change to the system that would be beneficial is for the voters to abandon the us versus them, tory/labour dichotomy and start electing people who were willing to not follow party lines but make compromises when needed. The only people who can make that happen, though, is the voters.

 

[mickeybnufc]

let's ask the people again, then

Why, it's already been asked and voted on, it's what's called Democracy,or do you want to keep having votes until you get the result you want

 

[Lord Jonjomort]

I don't think changing the system is going to help. The parliamentary democratic system is, in my view, better than the presidential system. Those are the only serious contenders that I am aware of for running any modern country.

The problem isn't with the system, it is with the people elected into that system. Theresa May and Jeremy Corbyn are two particularly unqualified leaders. They would have muddled on in normal circumstances. Unfortunately for us, they were the people in charge when a problem requiring actual statesmen, or at least skilful politicians, occured. Theresa May mishandled the process horrifically. Corbyn stood back and hoped that he could capitalise on her ineptitude to secure a general election. With neither leader willing to lead, the House of Commons is trying to do so. That's not really its job but there isn't anyone else.

The one change to the system that would be beneficial is for the voters to abandon the us versus them, tory/labour dichotomy and start electing people who were willing to not follow party lines but make compromises when needed. The only people who can make that happen, though, is the voters.

The problem with, and solution to, everything lies with people. But this is in essence bang on - Labour/Tory needs to die. We need to always have coalition governance dictated by local elections to produce leaders, people in it for the betterment of people. In effect, the only ruling party should be "independent", made up of people who have the necessary skills and public buy-in to positively affect change. Things like "PMQ's" and any power to the Lords should be completely abolished. Civil service should be told to proact, make and take decisions based on their local authority needs.

It's an almighty, unholy mess and will take years to pick through the bones. But we have to start with every constituency having license to elect whomever they want then take a general election from there. If Labour/Conservative retain significant majority then the people of this country will, again, show themselves up for the ignorant ****wits many of them are.

 

[Lord Jonjomort]

Why, it's already been asked and voted on, it's what's called Democracy,or do you want to keep having votes until you get the result you want

Oh this kind of comment is just bizarre.

We now have considerably more facts than we had at the time. We're now making an informed vote, and none of the lies about £350m for the NHS, etc., will be out there. People now know livelihoods are on the line, industry is on the line, even resparking the Troubles could be on the line. Now we have ALL the facts and aren't swayed by lying, self-serving morons like Farage and Johnson, let's have another whip round.

We need to go back on the vote. Not just for obvious economic reasons, but because our political system needs to be burned to the ground and it starts with reneging on a referendum. We need real fury towards this government; fury from remainers who hold ****ers like Cameron, Johnson, et al, responsible for the ****wittery, fury from leavers who will feel utterly cheated by ****ty politicians. The country needs to unite in a common goal of abolishing politics and rebuilding from scratch. If we allow these stupid tosspots to take us out of the EU, they'll be doing it purely for self-preservation; they know they've all got jobs to do if we do leave or have to do a new deal. What they do NOT want is to deal with all the attention once this **** show is over.

Mark my words - these ****ers will stretch this out for as long as humanly possible. I only hope that Corbyn does enough to put if back to referendum - not for his sake, but so we can get on with the important job of destroying Tory/Labour.

 

[Heed]

Why, it's already been asked and voted on, it's what's called Democracy,or do you want to keep having votes until you get the result you want

As correct as you are, be careful, you'll be accused off being undemocratic, and as thick as pig **** for inferring it.

 

[Freddd]

Why, it's already been asked and voted on, it's what's called Democracy,or do you want to keep having votes until you get the result you want

One of the most likely outcomes of this process will be that the UK enters into a common market type relationship. That would essentially make it a second tier member of the EU: obliged to follow the rules but with no ability to influence them.

I am virtually certain that no one voted for that result. The only way Leave voters are going to get a Brexit that satisfies them is if they are given a chance to vote on a specific method of leaving (no deal or whatever) and secure a majority. Of course, the majority may vote for something else.

A second referendum will give the majority what they want. Without it, we are going to get something that nobody wants.