Arteta Out Thread.
- Thread starter TheBear
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So where do we go from here ?
The squad isn't perfect but Arteta should be performing better with the group of players he's got. We're looking at a midtable finish and no European football for the first time in 25 years. And that is unacceptable for a club of Arsenal's stature.
The owners have taken us from CL and league challengers to midtable fodder, so it's clear that their tenure has also been a failure.
I think this club needs a root and branch change, from the very top down. We need owners who are going to invest in this club and we need a manager who has got experience and pedigree.
The last 2-3 years at Arsenal has been utterly woeful
The squad isn't perfect but Arteta should be performing better with the group of players he's got. We're looking at a midtable finish and no European football for the first time in 25 years. And that is unacceptable for a club of Arsenal's stature.
The owners have taken us from CL and league challengers to midtable fodder, so it's clear that their tenure has also been a failure.
I think this club needs a root and branch change, from the very top down. We need owners who are going to invest in this club and we need a manager who has got experience and pedigree.
The last 2-3 years at Arsenal has been utterly woeful
Yep I agree. Change of manager matters naught if the same rotten hierarchy are still in charge. Keep the most talented players (if they still want to stay). Gut the rest.
Our club has been left to get to a stage where it now needs massive investment. We've fallen so far behind, that a few tweaks here and there aren't going to cut it.
We were promised that moving to the Emirates was going to enable us to compete at the top table with the likes of Real Madrid and Barcelona and yet here we are a decade later competing with Aston Villa and Leeds to try and stay out of the bottom half of the table.
It's embarrassing.
Problem is that covid has ****ed football finances..... but it could be a blessing in disguise if Kronke decides he wants to cash in now
It's a tough question to answer because I really don't know.
KSE need to either start running the club properly or sell up and give it to someone who can. These underlying issues have been brewing for years and now our chickens have come home to roost. And every single big decision they have made has backfired on them - miserably. Yet they have always been too slow or waited too long to react. They don't just lack ambition, they lack competence.
I don't know whether Daniel Ek is the solution, but at least we can have some hope with him. What hope is there under KSE? We are plummeting further and further down the table, trying to plaster over the cracks and, unless we sell and recoup money for a lot of players this Summer, our finances are screwed.
It's a self-fulfilling prophecy. We're stuck where we are unless there's institutional change.
Yep we are reaping the ineptitude of a decade of KSE's management. Running player contracts down, not replacing quality players, being to slow to address the issues that were glaring to fans. And then making knee jerk decisions like handing Ozil a £350k contract after letting Sanchez go, hanging onto Wenger for too long and then hiring and firing a raft of coaches and player recruitment staff.
Handing a complete rookie the job after this ****storm has now manifest as the complete shot in the dark that it was. I like Arteta and he's clearly trying to do a good job, but he's way out of his depth given the utter mess this club is in. The bloke was never ready to take on a project as big as this.
KSE need to go. They have failed. As Henry and Ian Wright have said, they are not football men and they are not Arsenal fans. They do not understand the soul of the club and we need to bring people in who do. I don't know what Daniel Ek would bring to the table, but I like the fact that he would bring proper Arsenal people into the fold. That would at least give the club some of its identity back.
It's too speculative to say how we should progress and which manager we should bring in. I think next season we should just develop our young players, Saka, Smith Rowe, Tierney, Martinelli, Willock, Balogun. Maybe promote a couple more from the youth ranks and try and develop them so that we can build a team around them in the future.
I agree with all this. I would also say that next season is an opportunity to rest with no demands for European Football (I hate the Europa league and its a massive millstone anyway). If we get rid of the deadwood, we can have a proper rebuild. But it has to start now.
Yep, no expectations for next season.
A good time to shift on players that clearly aren't good enough, cash in on some of the higher value (higher earners) and take stock. Let the younger players develop and see what they can do without the pressure of being expected to challenge for the top 4 and a European trophy. Give them all another full season under their belts and then rebuild from there.
Hopefully we can get shot of KSE too and bring in some people who understand the soul of this club and who would put some fan representation on the board too.
He'd be mad to cash in now. Unless fan pressure forces his hand, selling in the middle of an economic downturn with no european football, a bloated wage bill and the worst squad in a quarter century would be the daftest thing imaginable. The club has been depreciating in value for years and this season fell off a cliff.
That's the thing; the amount it would cost him to get you back on track by hiring an experienced manager and sanctioning circa £100m in the summer as net spend pales into insignificance compared to the value of the club as it is now and the value it could be a few years down the line following said changes and investment.
But does Kronke see that? Does he even care?
I truly believe Kroenke does not care whatsoever about fan pressure. I almost think his desire to hold onto Arsenal actually increases the more the protests etc.
Well he hasn't so far, and he's allowed his asset to depreciate without addressing any of the core problems. So I don't see him changing that to be honest.
Whilst the club is worth vastly less than it could be given some proper investment in the squad and management, and as you point out we have a bloated wage bill, no European football and and pandemic struck economy, it's still Arsenal Football club and there are people out there whose level of wealth transcends any impacts of the aforementioned issues.
If somebody makes Kronke the right offer, he might be tempted to sell precisely because he doesn't have to plough £200m of his own dough into the club.
I honestly think - as insane as it sounds - Kroenke does not grasp the concept of the slippery slope in football. (Like if we were relegated how in trouble wed be and exactly how much income we would miss out on not playing in the Premier League.) He probably thinks its just like his American sport teams - finish last get first round draft pick.
I look at Spurs and wonder whether our issue is actually Arteta or just our players lacking the conviction, hunger, drive and motivation to succeed. Spurs have averaged a manager every 2 seasons, and still not won anything. You look at their squad and compare it to Leeds, on paper they are miles ahead. I feel our players are not willing to do the hard work, they think they have arrived.. They arrive on big transfer fees or get a huge weekly wage and then stop trying. I bet you the most any player gets per week in Leeds FC is 50k per week! I just worry, we might adopt Chelsea's model of hiring and firing and the results don't mirror the positive results that goes with that policy.
I think our players need to take a long look at themselves and ask themselves pertinent questions.
I think our players need to take a long look at themselves and ask themselves pertinent questions.
B
BUT you could also look at Chelsea and see how the exact same group of players perform so drastically different for Lampard vs for Tuchel. On the one hand you think, what a bunch of ****ing knobs to not play like that for Lampard. But on the other hand you think, well you know what, if that's what it takes, then fine get in a new manager and sort this **** out.
There's various factors for both us and you as to why we're struggling.
Poch got a lot of things wrong in his final 12 or so months and Lucas Moura's heroics in the CL semi final papered over a ton of cracks. A lot of Spurs fans could see the quality of our squad declining, we were losing key players and failing to replace them, whilst the dross players were getting more game time, it's then been compounded by poor recruitment, both players and manager(s).
The same is for Arsenal I'd say. Your managers haven't made the best of choices but there's largely a bunch of dross at your football club and like us, your recruitment, especially big money signings (Ndombele, Lo Celso, Partey, Pepe) have been ****.
So it's resulted in both North London clubs watching a lot of **** in recent seasons. The main reason we're above you is we have a genuine world class striker up top, whilst Son has also been very good, that individual quality of those two has carried our whole team. They're currently the top and third top scorer in the league yet we'll potentially finish 8th if Pool and Everton win their remaining games, tells you all about what we've got outside of those two.
We've been like that for the last decade mate.
We've signed some good players, like you have, but one or two of them can't be expected to carry the whole team.
We're relying on 19 year old Saka to be the spark who rescues us atm
I dont get how it always seems to work for Chelsea, different manager same players and they go on an win something.. A mana
To be fair Chelsea's issue has never been a lack of quality, rather a demanding owner (who is very impatient), he does not suffer fools gladly, no sentiments, Conte wins the FA Cup and Premier League, not long afterwards he is shown the door, Sarri wins the Europa League he is out... The list goes on, you cannot argue against the results on the pitch though. Lampard despite the transfer ban last season secured a top4 finish, his team has a wobble he is kicked out. Arteta, would have been fired at the end of last season, if he was managing Chelsea. However, the Chelsea Players know, if they are not pulling their weight, the manager will be on his bike, they could also find themselves in wilderness, unlike us and Spurs, we have paid big money (because of the dearth of talent), we have to keep using these players, they know they are not immuned from being dropped. The manager there is also forever looking over their shoulders, so no silly experiment like Arteta throwing the first leg with his false 9 formation.
I think it is unfair to label players like Ndombele, Partey and Pepe dross. These players in a proper functioning team, we would be raving on about them. I have seen Partey play for Athletico and felt he was a class act. Pepe, I never really saw play, but I have seen flashes of his brilliance and don't know if these guys have been given a good run in the team. Ndombele, (I would pick him over any Leicester midfielders) I have seen him play for you guys, again I felt he was a class act might be inconsistent, but still a very good player, same goes for Beijwin (sic) last season before the lock down, he was very explosive. I still feel the players we have should be doing a lot better than what they are currently producing. I don't look at any of the current top 4 teams (minus City) and panic when we play them.. United you guys gave them a good beating, Mancity you beat comfortably, Chelsea you have no fear for, Leicester the same.. The key issue is these players not showing for the routine 3points e.g. Newcastle, Wolves, Southampton etc..We lost home/away to Wolves, Everton and Villa, Liverpool, City, Burnley claimed 4points and the list goes on!
The painful truth is we have seen enough top 4 ( and top 3) level players at Spurs in recent years to know what one looks like and what is needed to become one.
The vast majority of Spurs fans bemoan ENIC's lack of investment at crucial junctures. A growing and increasingly vocal minority are waking up to the reality that on the rare occasion we actually spend, we throw most of it down the drain.
We haven't signed a player who has improved the Starting XI since Victor Wanyama was signed to replace Dier in 2016. Five years. It is difficult to rely on a switch in manager when the same culprits have been disappointing under 3 different regimes. And the same goes for you as well.
Sanchez replaced Vertonghen.
Aurier replaced Walker.
We signed Sessegnon to replace Rose, haven't seen him in 2 years.
NDombele was signed to replace Dembele.
Lo Celso was signed to replace Eriksen.
The climb down in quality is mind blowing. Not a manager on earth is going to make Serge Aurier a better player than Walker, or Davinson Sanchez better than Vertonghen.
I agree that these players aren't "dross". But they are miles off of being top 4 quality. There is no crime in that. The PL is so far ahead of Europe's other leagues most foreign signings will struggle one way or another. Personally I don't think Partey or Ndombele can handle the physicality or intensity of the game here.
Your team is definitely nearer top4, than ours... We are miles off it, we were never in contention from the start of the season!
New Signings are always a gamble, particularly when you factor in the fact that these players have to contend with a new league and new culture.
I cant argue with this point, just to question whether an A-List manager at the top of their game can eek out an extra 10-15% from these players? Are you saying they are beyond being redeemed?
Again, I take your point, however how long do we give a new signing? As it can be a bit unfair to compare player x with player y.. We also have to accept it is difficult to replace some players, Modric how do replace him, Bale, Kane, Erriksen, Son, Henry, Berkamp, Viera, and players of those ilk.. Even with a bottomless pit of cash, these players are once in a generation type of players. We have had so many false dawns of Viera replacement, we have now given up and judge each player solely on their own merit. If Kane decides to go, it would be unfair on any replacement to be compared to his prowess!
These players you say, were not the finished material from day one, not even Bale (when you signed him from Southampton), the key is year on year improvement... Sometimes, I suspect having too many players in upsets the team dynamics.