Off Topic The Politics Thread

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Should the UK remain a part of the EU or leave?

  • Stay in

    Votes: 56 47.9%

  • Get out

    Votes: 61 52.1%
  • Total voters
    117
  • Poll closed .
KPDHoopster said:
Seriously, there are numerous western countries who have been let down by politicians of all colours, that's why a nut-head let Trump got voted in, that's why Greece and Spain have voted into government, extreme parties, that's why a bunch of idiots, collectively called UKIP got so many votes, until their incompetancies were exposed.
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Regarding Europe you have to agree with Farage as he has been spot on with the EU and how they work. I remember a interview with him about 2 years ago saying that 5star would do well in Italy and there will be problems with them and the EU. He said there would be raise of far-right parties in Germany/sweden/france/holland. And that.Merkel wouldn't last. But most importantly he said the EU would frustrate and try and stop us leaving at any cost.
 
ELLERS said:
Regarding Europe you have to agree with Farage as he has been spot on with the EU and how they work. I remember a interview with him about 2 years ago saying that 5star would do well in Italy and there will be problems with them and the EU. He said there would be raise of far-right parties in Germany/sweden/france/holland. And that.Merkel wouldn't last. But most importantly he said the EU would frustrate and try and stop us leaving at any cost.
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I agree with you on Nigel Farage, but I was referring to the bunch of idiots he scraped the bottom of the barrel, to represent his party.
 
KPDHoopster said:
I agree with you on Nigel Farage, but I was referring to the bunch of idiots he scraped the bottom of the barrel, to represent his party.
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I like farage because he says what he feels. And I know a lot of remainers dislike him but his knowledge of how the EU dictate.. Sorry I meant operate is very good.
Agree he did have a few idiots following his party but he is distancing himself now because I see a new party coming especially if they rob the people of their democratic vote.
I think there could be splits in Labour and Tories.
 
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sb_73 said:
Right on all points Raving. One of the reasons I like the idea, if not the practice, of the EU is that it enables much bigger scale thinking and action.

But my scepticsm is about the utility of nation states (or all but the very biggest like the US or China) not about their emotional resonance. We like to have things which help to identify us.
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With you. Agree entirely too. Also agree a second referendum is currently entirely pointless.

I may be wrong, but I think much of what your original post is starting to grapple with is how politics is being disrupted by digital platforms, and the significant challenfes & opportunities this presents. It's opening up all sorts of questions about how politics works, and the Brexit referendum and Trump campaign are interesting case studies. I suppose GE17 is too. Our electoral laws are certainly not yet modern enough.

No time to delve further right now, but I think it's an interesting discussion point.
 
sb_73 said:
Without, genuinely, wishing to stir things up, this cluster **** is raising some interesting constitutional questions, which I am far from qualified to comment on.

As you know I don’t want another referendum, I don’t like them full stop (although I recognise there are certain rare circumstances they are the right thing to do). They don’t sit well with a representative parliamentary system in my opinion. Plus I entirely agree with the Brexiters objection that it smacks of asking the question endlessly until the ‘right’ answer is obtained. The 2016 referendum, though it was a ****ing moronic idea by a ****ing moronic Prime Minister, held for all the wrong reasons, offered a clear choice and a decision was made. The wrong one from my standpoint, but there you go.

But one of the things that many Brexit voters wanted was more ‘sovereignty’. Again as you know I have my views on what this really means, but not relevant here. But we do have to be absolutely clear what sovereignty means in this debate. Again my opinion only, in the British system sovereignty is held (with technically the Queen’s permission) by our elected representatives in Parliament. Not by ‘the people’.

So what are the MPs for? In my view they are representatives not delegates. They are not there to do what their constituents, or the people who voted for them, want, they are there to study all the issues the government puts in front of them to a depth which we ordinary citizens cannot and vote according to what they believe is best for all of their constituents.

So, if Parliament decides to reject this deal in favour of something else, including staying in or another referendum (though that would be dereliction of duty from my standpoint) it would be a shining example of what many Brexiters voted for - the exercise of Parliamentary Sovereignty.

Our big problem is that, despite many of them acting as excellent advocates for individual constituents with problems, the overall quality of our elected representatives is shockingly low, something which we all seem to agree on. I don’t trust them to do their jobs properly.

The alternative would be a new form of much more direct democracy, many more referenda, more active and inclusive local government structures, building to a national level. I’m guessing that only Stainsey on here would be really for this. For it to work you need a massively motivated, informed and engaged population, otherwise only the activists will have a voice, the one who can be bothered to turn out, debate, vote. A system open to abuse, intimidation and manipulation, like local Labour constituency parties. Not for me.

I’ve probably got bits of this wrong, just trying to think it through, and will be grateful for correction/education. It seems to me that we are in a now in a position where we are also divided on what our democracy actually is and how it should work. The one plus is that I can see the demise of the two party dominant system from all this, both major parties are hopelessly split and in neither do a majority of their MPs support their leader.
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Thing is though, this argument put forward by remainers that brexiters wanted more sovereignty, so we should accept parliament making the final decision simply doesn't wash.
The same sovereign government promised the electorate that the referendum result would be carried out. The same sovereign houses of parliament voted overwhelmingly to implement the result and both main parties fought an election promising to do the same.
I have no problem with a sovereign government making the final decision, which should either be May's deal, another deal or no deal. Remaining can't be an option as that ship has sailed.
Unfortunately, these sovereign representatives of our are lying, scheming, betraying scum bags who have been plotting, along with the remainer civil servants to stop brexit from ever happening.
I agree that referendums aren't ideal, but we had it and the people chose.
 
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ELLERS said:
Agree I only see a free trade deal out of this. Some interesting comments from financial Bods yesterday who said a lot of business were ready for any outcome even a no deal but it was the government who seem to be the ones not prepared. ( It's as if May has orcastrated this to fail):emoticon-0127-lipss
This people's Veto does make me laugh... We are suppose to ask the people again as they got it wrong last time and on the ballot paper will be 3 options ( to split the leave vote). They really are patronizing 2222’s. Don't the realise they will lose again... Then what?
This is Mays mess because she was always a remainer and didn't believe in it. She needs to fall on her sword next week so we can bring in a strong Brexitier to sort out the weak EU. :emoticon-0165-muscl
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May tbh has tried to deliver the best but of course anyone could see the difficulties
The Brexiteers voted to leave the EU however taking away the protest element from the vote then it was hardly a win
Now the nation knows a lot more we are two years on and of course it’s time to look again at the democratic vote it’s too important not to be 100% sure

No one knows the outcome but st least it would be 100 % true I prefer the final outcome not to be decided by this government but the people

I would seriously love it tbh if Ellers and co were comprehensively made to see how daft they have been and of course to date not one post Brexit plan or idea
 
rangercol said:
Thing is though, this argument put forward by remainers that brexiters wanted more sovereignty, so we should accept parliament making the final decision simply doesn't wash.
The same sovereign government promised the electorate that the referendum result would be carried out. The same sovereign houses of parliament voted overwhelmingly to implement the result and both main parties fought an election promising to do the same.
I have no problem with a sovereign government making the final decision, which should either be May's deal, another deal or no deal. Remaining can't be an option as that ship has sailed.
Unfortunately, these sovereign representatives of our are lying, scheming, betraying scum bags who have been plotting, along with the remainer civil servants to stop brexit from ever happening.
I agree that referendums aren't ideal, but we had it and the people chose.
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They are called ” the enemy within”.
 
KPDHoopster said:
Seriously, there are numerous western countries who have been let down by politicians of all colours, that's why a nut-head let Trump got voted in, that's why Greece and Spain have voted into government, extreme parties, that's why a bunch of idiots, collectively called UKIP got so many votes, until their incompetancies were exposed.
Click to expand...

Agreed 100% but love to see the Englishman on the streets fighting for change and justice

MT put pay to that and now the maximum moan is via a bloody iPad in the UK ... add to that the self obsession of the current Anglo Saxon and I believe you would be close to the answer to the question ... Why have the people of the UK put up with this sort of governance?

Time to look at the Statement:
We are British

We sold out far too late to suddenly wake up and want a UK back again ... what UK anyway ?

A divided mess of consumption
 
Totally agree about not having a 2nd referendum. The 1st was an option short. Should have said leave with no deal/ leave with a deal or remain. Would have been better and we may not be where we are now. The enemy within as people keep stating is the Tory party. If they were all together on this one way or another then half the discussions wouldnt be going on.
 
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DT’s Socks said:
Agreed 100% but love to see the Englishman on the streets fighting for change and justice

MT put pay to that and now the maximum moan is via a bloody iPad in the UK ... add to that the self obsession of the current Anglo Saxon and I believe you would be close to the answer to the question ... Why have the people of the UK put up with this sort of governance?

Time to look at the Statement:
We are British

We sold out far too late to suddenly wake up and want a UK back again ... what UK anyway ?

A divided mess of consumption
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But that is what a democracy is, opinions of all the spectrum, is what makes a country richer.

Fighting in the street, is called anarchy, where mob rule, and threats of violence, have persuasions.

Many countries have experienced them, but to advocate them and think a country should aspire to more of them, is idiocy.
 
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bobmid said:
Totally agree about not having a 2nd referendum. The 1st was an option short. Should have said leave with no deal/ leave with a deal or remain. Would have been better and we may not be where we are now. The enemy within as people keep stating is the Tory party. If they were all together on this one way or another then half the discussions wouldnt be going on.
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That doesn't make sense, that would divide the leave vote ???
 
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ELLERS said:
Agree I only see a free trade deal out of this. Some interesting comments from financial Bods yesterday who said a lot of business were ready for any outcome even a no deal but it was the government who seem to be the ones not prepared. ( It's as if May has orcastrated this to fail):emoticon-0127-lipss
This people's Veto does make me laugh... We are suppose to ask the people again as they got it wrong last time and on the ballot paper will be 3 options ( to split the leave vote). They really are patronizing 2222’s. Don't the realise they will lose again... Then what?
This is Mays mess because she was always a remainer and didn't believe in it. She needs to fall on her sword next week so we can bring in a strong Brexitier to sort out the weak EU. :emoticon-0165-muscl
Click to expand...

This bit about a multi-option referendum 'splitting the Leave vote' makes me laugh. The Leave vote already was split in 2016 and remains split now. There is not one single possible Leave outcome, but several. The problem is that every Leave voter thinks that they must get their own preferred option, or else they've been betrayed in some way. Canada, Norway, May's deal and one or two other variations would all constitute leaving the EU and could all therefore legitimately be described as implementing the original referendum result.

If there were to be a further referendum with multiple options (which is how the first one should have been set out), it would be on a transferable vote basis, so there is no question of 'splitting' the Leave vote, or the Remain vote for that matter.
 
Stroller said:
This bit about a multi-option referendum 'splitting the Leave vote' makes me laugh. The Leave vote already was split in 2016 and remains split now. There is not one single possible Leave outcome, but several. The problem is that every Leave voter thinks that they must get their own preferred option, or else they've been betrayed in some way. Canada, Norway, May's deal and one or two other variations would all constitute leaving the EU and could all therefore legitimately be described as implementing the original referendum result.

If there were to be a further referendum with multiple options (which is how the first one should have been set out), it would be on a transferable vote basis, so there is no question of 'splitting' the Leave vote, or the Remain vote for that matter.
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Stroller, you do come out with some tosh sometimes.

There are many options of how a EU leaving deal could be structured, how could "every" leave voter expect to have their own deal ?

It is widely accepted May should have put in place two or three options developing potential alternatives, knowing the EU would be pigheaded in trying to screw the UK, as I have said before, if they made it easy, the stampede for the exits would be thunderous.

The assumption should have been there was no way the EU,like Cameron experienced, would offer any reasonable exit deal.
 
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bobmid said:
Totally agree about not having a 2nd referendum. The 1st was an option short. Should have said leave with no deal/ leave with a deal or remain. Would have been better and we may not be where we are now. The enemy within as people keep stating is the Tory party. If they were all together on this one way or another then half the discussions wouldnt be going on.
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You really need to know and understand what the "enemy within" is. You using it for the Tories is totally wrong.
Then again we can all see through your remain/anti-Tory stance. Mate.
 
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KPDHoopster said:
There are many options of how a EU leaving deal could be structured, how could "every" leave voter expect to have their own deal ?
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I didn't say they could, did I? I said that they seem to think that they should.

I was describing how the Leave vote was already split and how talk of a multi-option referendum 'splitting the Leave vote' is nonsense.
 
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