Off Topic European Debate Thread

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In, out, or undecided?

  • In

    Votes: 12 27.3%

  • Out

    Votes: 27 61.4%

  • Undecided

    Votes: 5 11.4%
  • Total voters
    44
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Premiershiporbust IV said:
1). I am off to spend the day with my ailing parents now so in the interests of brevity, this should help you http://europa.eu/eu-law/decision-making/procedures/index_en.htm
2). 10 years (or more) is the generally accepted measure as the period for negotiating a trade agreement, they are INCREDIBLY complex - look it up
3). what happened to 3..? has it been phased out by the EU... <yikes>
4). can't help with that one other than to say that nothing ever stands still, its called evolution..
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1/ I did look it up, What I understood was different to yourself. We have very little influence if any. Laws are being created by bureaucrats and I came across an interesting description called the democracy deficit. The council and commission are the ones creating law. The commission are not elected by voters.
2/ I did look it up. I couldn’t find your facts which is why I asked you to substantiate it.
3/You had no disagreement. We both agree.
4/ Your contradicting yourself. Posters have pointed out most of us are not old enough to have agreed to the long gone common market.

Hope your parents are ok. I too have a family member in their nineties in ill health.
 
It's a long time since I posted on here, but for the first time I find myself edging towards the 'Remain' camp.
NOT because I like much about the EU - I don't.
It's because of the comparative risk and subsequent mitigation of those risks, should things get unbearable.

If we stay, and things get unbearable, then we can crash out whenever we want. We don't need a referendum or permission from Brussels to leave.

However, if we leave, and the EU gang up on us and (more importantly) the rest of the world are lukewarm towards us, then we will find it very difficult or even impossible to rejoin.

Still undecided though.
 
bcfcredandwhite said:
It's a long time since I posted on here, but for the first time I find myself edging towards the 'Remain' camp.
NOT because I like much about the EU - I don't.
It's because of the comparative risk and subsequent mitigation of those risks, should things get unbearable.

If we stay, and things get unbearable, then we can crash out whenever we want. We don't need a referendum or permission from Brussels to leave.

However, if we leave, and the EU gang up on us and (more importantly) the rest of the world are lukewarm towards us, then we will find it very difficult or even impossible to rejoin.

Still undecided though.
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you vote in,there is no going back.

i hope you change your mind,this country can and will stand on its own two feet,we will be free to trade with the whole world.
We will be able to put resources where we wish,We will be in control of our destiny,We will stop the un elected bureaucrats in Brussels wasting our money.
Take control vote out.
 
My trouble is that Brexiteers are describing a utopian future. By dismissing any critism on the ability to achieve this they are saying. To me that they know that they can't achieve it.

No Brexiteer has said how to achieve a better Britain outside of the EU. The attitude of we are Britain and everyone will bow down to us is flawed and niave.

I do not believe that outside the Eu we will strike a deal with the Eu that doesn't include very similar restrictions to what we currently have.

Products being sold to the EU will still have to meet the same restrictions.

Most foreign investors back change as do most economists.

The head of the bank of England has backed remain as have most world leaders.

The fact that the better the remain vote does in polls the better the markets and the pound does tells you or you need to know

VOTE REMAIN
 
To be fair, the Brexit gang has explained how we would become stronger alone - but it relies on trade deals with countries like China, India, Canada etc which don't yet exist - and there is no guarantee that they ever will. They might materialise of course but we simply don't know.

And RR - I stand by my statement that we can leave whenever we want. The EU won't send troops in to crush our 'rebellion ' but they will use sanctions.
 
bcfcredandwhite said:
To be fair, the Brexit gang has explained how we would become stronger alone - but it relies on trade deals with countries like China, India, Canada etc which don't yet exist - and there is no guarantee that they ever will. They might materialise of course but we simply don't know.

And RR - I stand by my statement that we can leave whenever we want. The EU won't send troops in to crush our 'rebellion ' but they will use sanctions.
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The trade deals don't exist because the Eu won't allow us to have any or negotiate any!

As far as coming out when we want.. It's not gonna happen! No more than if it doesn't work for us, we could just wander back in!

This is the one and only chance to remove ourselves from this corrupt club of overly paid bureaucrats.
 
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bcfcredandwhite said:
To be fair, the Brexit gang has explained how we would become stronger alone - but it relies on trade deals with countries like China, India, Canada etc which don't yet exist - and there is no guarantee that they ever will. They might materialise of course but we simply don't know.

And RR - I stand by my statement that we can leave whenever we want. The EU won't send troops in to crush our 'rebellion ' but they will use sanctions.
Click to expand...
Yeah the main trouble is that we don't really know how good a trade deal would be. We can only guess. It is unlikely that it would be any greater than what is offered to the EU and may contain some dodgy clauses
 
Mind the gap! said:
My trouble is that Brexiteers are describing a utopian future. By dismissing any critism on the ability to achieve this they are saying. To me that they know that they can't achieve it.

No Brexiteer has said how to achieve a better Britain outside of the EU. The attitude of we are Britain and everyone will bow down to us is flawed and niave.

I do not believe that outside the Eu we will strike a deal with the Eu that doesn't include very similar restrictions to what we currently have.

Products being sold to the EU will still have to meet the same restrictions.

Most foreign investors back change as do most economists.

The head of the bank of England has backed remain as have most world leaders.

The fact that the better the remain vote does in polls the better the markets and the pound does tells you or you need to know

VOTE REMAIN
Click to expand...

Can you provide a link to this utopian ideal?

No Brexiteer has said how to achieve a better Britain outside of the EU ... Very clear ideas have been provided how to create improvement. Mr Cameron meanwhile will not commit to extra spending on social care and housing to deal with Britaims uncontrolled EU immigration. Working in social services / nhs settings my view is you cannot achieve better by increasing the population by millions and placing further strain on services that are already collapsing.

I do not believe that outside the Eu we will strike a deal with the Eu that doesn't include very similar restrictions to what we currently have ... Done to death. It is a nonsense.

Products being sold to the EU will still have to meet the same restriction ... What restriction are these? Tarifs? Testing? What?

Most foreign investors back change as do most economists ... What change?

The head of the bank of England has backed remain ... Not the view of the previous head.

Regarding an earlier question. Can you explain what workers rights are at risk if the UK leaves the EU?

You have also expressed an idea that utilities and industries can be nationalised for a greater good. How would you achieve this given the EU is clearly heading towards privitisation of nationalised industries?
 
If I was still undecided, I would think about the following 3 points.

1. Cameron who wants to remain has admitted that if we leave the EU, we will be fine. We will survive and be ok. That to me doesn't sound bad does it.

2. Corbyn who wants to remain has admitted that if we stay in the EU then we have no control whatsoever over immigration. That to me doesn't sound great does it. Remember, we ain't anti immigration, we want controlled immigration.

3. Osborne who wants to remain has threatened the British public that if we leave the EU, we will pay higher taxes and cuts to services including the NHS, breaking many things from their manifesto.

In conclusion, if I was still undecided and I heard Cameron and Corbyn admit the above and then see the threats and blackmail at the British public from Osborne, 'LEAVE' is the way to go.

Vote leave.
 
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David Beckham has now publicly stated where his vote is going. He wants to remain, although he left and lives in America.

Remain are getting a bit desperate now bringing in celebrities to try and get votes for them using their popularity.
 
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If pondering and digesting the very few facts available and listening carefully to the THEORIES of both sides of the argument, before committing my vote in this monumental decision for the country is 'pathetic dithering' then I am a proud 'pathetic ditherer'.
I'm not going to cast my vote on the back of a 5 minute UKIP rant or a chat in the pub - or bullying by supporters of either camp.
 
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bcfcredandwhite said:
If pondering and digesting the very few facts available and listening carefully to the THEORIES of both sides of the argument, before committing my vote in this monumental decision for the country is 'pathetic dithering' then I am a proud 'pathetic ditherer'.
I'm not going to cast my vote on the back of a 5 minute UKIP rant or a chat in the pub - or bullying by supporters of either camp.
Click to expand...

Actually I am left wing so hardly a stereotypical ukip supporter.

The bullying is very much on the side of remain e.g emergency budgets. The out camp have nothing to bully with.

I do not go for theories. Questions I have asked consistently is how does remaining in the EU help meet the demands on the NHS, housing etc from a steadily rising population, and how does the EU protect British workers jobs and rights etc?

The NHS is very close to myself, as are pay conditions in social care. The answer to both is the EU does not. Jobs in social care have no security, wages are awfully low and due to the EU we have even lost the absolute right to striking.
 
That MP who has changed her mind from leave to remain have done so for the wrong reasons.

She had her beliefs and reasons to choose leave. As an MP, you would think she came to this decision based on lots of thinking and weighing up the facts. She chose to leave.

Then UKIP made a poster which she disagreed with and now as a result is voting for remain.

If she changed her mind as new facts came out which tipped it in remains favour then fair enough.

But that didnt happen. It was a poster that made her go against her beliefs and reasons. How can you change your mind on a decision to leave or remain in the EU over a poster. That's pathetic.

She thought someone in the leave camp was racist. Yes racism is not acceptable but to change your mind on your beliefs on a very important decision because someone in that group was racist is sad.

Let's put it another way....
That's like a city fan changing their allegiance to Rovers because another City fan said something offensive. That wouldn't happen would it. You would ignore it or question the person over what was said but you certainly wouldn't change teams would you. You would think if someone changed team was pathetic.

This MP in question just showed how mentally and policitally weak they are and I certainly wouldn't want them representing me in my area.

My point regarding this is... You should make your own decision based on how you want the UK to be and how it will effect you. You shouldn't make your decision based on if you don't like someone in 1 of the camps or if someone in 1 of the camps upsets you.
 
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Cliftonville said:
Can you provide a link to this utopian ideal?

No Brexiteer has said how to achieve a better Britain outside of the EU ... Very clear ideas have been provided how to create improvement. Mr Cameron meanwhile will not commit to extra spending on social care and housing to deal with Britaims uncontrolled EU immigration. Working in social services / nhs settings my view is you cannot achieve better by increasing the population by millions and placing further strain on services that are already collapsing.

I do not believe that outside the Eu we will strike a deal with the Eu that doesn't include very similar restrictions to what we currently have ... Done to death. It is a nonsense.

Products being sold to the EU will still have to meet the same restriction ... What restriction are these? Tarifs? Testing? What?

Most foreign investors back change as do most economists ... What change?

The head of the bank of England has backed remain ... Not the view of the previous head.

Regarding an earlier question. Can you explain what workers rights are at risk if the UK leaves the EU?

You have also expressed an idea that utilities and industries can be nationalised for a greater good. How would you achieve this given the EU is clearly heading towards privitisation of nationalised industries?
Click to expand...

All you have to do is to watch the news and you will see that a Brexit person will simply make a statement of we will do this, however there is never much reasoning to how they would implement such policies. For example no-one has said how we will be able to fulfill a trade deal with the Eu without doing a Norway and having all their rules including freedom of movement.

As for population I cannot see us agreeing a decent trade deal without keeping the freedom of movement rules.

As for restrictions on products sold to the EU. All the "red tape" such as dimensions and safety regulations will have to be applied to anything on its way to being sold in the Eu.

Most foreign investors say that they back us remaining with some saying they may have to build new factories in other Eu countries if we leave.

The head of the bank of England is in my view the most qualified man in Britain to talk about financial effects of Brexit. If that's not enough there are many financial and economic bodies from the treasury to the London school of economics saying that leaving would be very costly.
 
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