Off Topic European Debate Thread

Left wing view of leaving the eu. mtg have a view on who is backing remain and think about their views on workers rights. It will also destroy your points about postal services, austerity, fishing and more.

 

Can you explain the role of the European Commission, how it creates laws and how its commissioners are elected? No googling.

Most people cannot. I can't. WE do not even know how it runs.

 

WELL I don't think I will read anymore of this, in my book the pro's and con's weigh up like this ...( thanks to all contributors on here who have put effort in enabling me to glean a lot of useful info for and against )

The pro's for staying in ( based on 1000kgs or 2240 lbs ) 340 kgs / 762 lbs
the cons for staying in 660 kgs / 1478 lbs

SO THEREFORE THE CONS HAVE IT LEAVING WINS BY 320 KGS / 718LBS

The EU DIRECTIVE on the UK referendum using 80 gsm paper weighs in at 1325 kgs / 2968 lbs, the directive on what paper to use was 379 kgs/ 849 lbs and the directive on the type of ink 276 kgs/ 618 lbs which country should print it 987 kgs /2211 lbs ..(sent to India whilst still arguing, by an unknown member of the commission suspected as being the nephew of the local indian takeaway .) and the directive as to whether a directive was required weighed in at 1560 kgs / 3494 lbs .. further directives has since been instigated regarding loss of forest's, carbon loss and footprints in getting the paper and a request is in the offing to increase the annual country contribution due to amounts of tea coffee heating and hotel bills, general expenses like weekly massage at local parlour, needed for all the aforesaid mentioned...

v o t e L E A V E

 

Yes, we are. An example would be the inability to deport Abu Hamza to a fellow Nato country to stand trial for terrorism, 10 years of legal argument and millions of pounds spent despite both Labour and Conservative governments wanting him deported.

A crime he was later convicted of and is currently imprisoned for life.

As per Wiz's reply to you, we don't always have a veto and have been out voted on 70 plus occasions.

Another example is Tate & Lyle the largest sugar producing company in the UK is forced to take Beet sugar for production which is inferior and massively more costly than Cane sugar due to EU regulation.

They desperately want to leave the EU.

 

Is that the same Swiss who are delighted to not be part of the EU and the second largest GDP economy in the world that is currently booming?

 

Is that so? You're doing what MTG has been doing for the last few weeks now, opinion is not fact!



"As the total of UK-born inmates falls, the ranks of Eastern European prisoners are rising amid a crimewave by migrants exploiting European Union freedom of movement rules.
The figures obtained by the Sunday Express raise fresh fears about the impact on Britain when transitional controls on impoverished and crime ridden Bulgaria and Romania are removed next year.

According to the statistics, the number of Romanian inmates rose from 454 in September 2011 to 624 last month.

Fraudsters from the former Eastern bloc country are responsible for 92 per cent of all ATM crime in Britain, according to police figures.

One of the most notorious examples is Gheorge Banu who, in 2005 was the ringleader of a gang who used fake ATM machines to record financial details to take £643,000 from customers’ accounts. A judge had already asked for his deportation after a previous conviction.

The number of Polish prisoners, the largest East European group in British jails, has climbed 10 per cent to 807; enough to fill Belmarsh high security jail in London.
Of the eight mid and Eastern European nations represented in British prisons, including Albania and Slovakia, only Latvia saw its numbers go down.

Thanks to lax laws put in place by the last Labour government, it is all too easy for foreign nationals to find excuses to stay in the UK

MP Priti Patel

British taxpayers are already paying more than £90million a year to fund the 2,400 Eastern Europeans currently in jail, at a rate of £38,000 per prisoner.

However the possible extra financial burden of economic migrants to the system has not been forecast by Government departments.

MP Priti Patel asked 16 ministries, including the Home Office, Department of Health, Department for Work and Pensions, Ministry of Justice and the Treasury, what immigration has cost their department since 1997.

Each reported that estimates had not been calculated and “to do so would incur a disproportionate cost”.

MPs reacted with fury to the prison figures last night.

Conservative Dominic Raab said: “The rules of the game are flawed. If you come to this country from within Europe and commit a crime serious enough to warrant jail, you should be put on the first plane home.”

The MP for Esher and Walton in Surrey added: “A toxic mix of EU and human rights law has warped all common sense. Any right of free movement should come with responsibilities, including obeying the law"

 

Turkeys dont vote for Christmas..

 

I'm also far too young but I think this is basically it. I would be all for some sort of massively deregulated European Union for sure. In fact I would prefer to be in some sort of EU than not, just not the one we currently have.

 

Jeez, thought that one was fairly obviously tongue in cheek....

 

So you didn't hear the bit where he indicated that he would love a Brexit as he would probably be kept busy working on the new deals for the rest of his working life if it happened. I think that this would be pretty much in his interest if he had an agenda don't you think, yet he disagrees ..?

Did you actually get to the bit where a bloke who does know his stuff about the law said we would be royally ****ed, unable to trade with anyone on anything other than WTO basic terms which would very much be against our interests...?

This is what I don't like about the Leave campaign, anyone with in depth knowledge who can actually comment with authority on the subject is immediately labelled as having an agenda.

I don't know what you guys do for a living but I have done the same job since I left school and over 30 years later, I am considered pretty good at it to the extent that businesses with turnovers approaching £100m listen to what I tell them as being accurate, true and unbiased and accept my advice. I would therefore be pretty pissed off if someone who had little or no experience in my line of work came along and said actually, this bloke is wrong and tried to discredit me, in fact, I would be ****ing livid - as would any of you...

The same goes for Dougan, he is selected to give advice to government and select committees due to the depth of his knowledge (so a bit more than just a lecturer) so he is clearly pissed off that just because he is saying something that doesn't suite the Leave agenda, he is labelled biased, hence the press conference to say actually, **** you to those trying to discredit him....

 

I have heard him discredited and without an answer to simple questions on many a radio phone in or debate! It fits your agenda so you see what you want to see, within 5 minutes of watching your clip I could see a man who's ego and profession wouldn't allow him to be wrong.

You have said on numerous occasions that the consequences of leaving are nothing more than speculation, yet now a university professor who gets paid to talk about the EU on a daily basis and can see his job possibly disappearing before his eyes, spouting what you want to hear becomes some sort of genius?

Heard it all before and he hasn't answered any real questions that I have.

As I said, Turkeys don't vote for Xmas!!!

 

Nothing in this debate can be regarded as tongue in cheek, people are repeating untruths on a daily basis, why use it to accentuate your point if it's tongue in cheek??

 

What I actually said (once) was that no one really knows what the true implications of Brexit will be. What we can know with absolute certainty though is what international trading law says as it is clearly defined for all to see.

So the repeated commentary by Leave to say yeah, we can trade with who we like, when and how we like is completely and totally irresponsible as it doesn't work that way. Wait until the economy implodes and house prices drop 25% in value leaving many in negative equity if we pursue this madness...

Can't say that I have heard Dougan on the radio but he doesn't sound like a man who is unable to answer a simple question to me. See this is the thing about top rank lawyers, they are that clever that like scousers, they are never without an answer. Would be really happy if you could point me in the direction of the podcast as I would be really interested in listening to his inability to respond and/or the credentials of the person(s) discrediting him....

Ever considered the possibility that a bloke who has made constitutional and trade relations law (with or without the prefix "EU" in front) his life's work might actually know what he is talking about more than the politicians with little or no legal training who want us out and is right...?

As for his job disappearing, Brexit or Remain, he will have plenty of work regardless. In fact, probably more on Brexit as he will be involved in re-writing the new trade agreements (average 10 years work) so this comment is nonsense.

Luckily, the stock market appears to have priced in a "remain" vote today so hopefully, we won't have to go through the catastrophic consequences of a departure...

 

This might be a bit harsh and a bit backwards to you and I and people our age, but it happened to some on here and our parents.
But going back to the late eighties early nineties the ecomony needed house prices to drop to progress. We all know that young men / women at the moment can't get onto the property ladder so this will force house prices down in time.
You know the old saying "sometimes you need to take one step back, to move two steps forward"
Not saying it would be good, but might be in the future?

 

You're doing it again. How do you get from a university professor who talks for a living to getting a job re-writing trade agreements??

That would be the job of civil servants who have been employed to do that for years.

And if you think all the companies that trade with us will stop overnight, I'm afraid that can only be described as nonsense.

Here it is again.. speculative rubbish.

Apparently you do ????

 

Premiershiporbust quoted your post but it went haywire so.

1. Can you explain how joe bloggs the average voter affects the EU?

We can vote for MEPs but they do not make the laws.

2. Where do you get ten years from? Is that the rest of the world taking ten years to set up deals with the eu? If so the eu is madly failing everybody there.

4. I was not old enough to vote for the common market and the eu is something all together different.

 

Thank goodness the vote is soon:

1). correction - UK law, not the trade agreement, go to video around 12 minutes - summary, reform of UK law will keep people like me in business for a long time. The crossover was the comment towards the end that there are basically not enough civil servants in the country to renegotiate even a couple of trade agreements, let alone 60+

2). Speculative rubbish...? let us assume for the purposes of discussion that Dougan does know his stuff and think it through logically.

He asserts that leaving the EU and the free market will automatically void any trade agreements that we have made with the rest of the world since we joined the EU which apparently is most of them (and no, I haven't looked it up as I accept that an error on such a basic concept would seriously undermine his credibility)

He also asserts that currently, we are an attractive proposition to the ROW due to our membership of the free market so our ROW trading partners will want to know what our future relationship will be with the EU/free market before they commit to making any new deals with us. We have 2 years to finalise our exit terms (not the same as negotiating a new deal) and we won't be offered the Norweigan solution as we won't accept free movement of people.

This automatically makes us a less attractive proposition all round and will impact our negotiating position going forward and it will not be "business as usual" because other nations will pause to re-evaluate their terms of business with us. Also, don't forget, we will be in trading limbo for a significant length of time before new deals are finalised which will undoubtedly have an impact on our trading income.

One again, Leave just brushes INTERNATIONAL, LEGALLY BINDING TRADING AGREEMENTS under the carpet like they doesn't exist but that don't make it so I'm afraid. Therefore it is absolutely not rubbish to surmise that leaving the EU will have an immediate negative impact on our economy, it is an inevitability and, that is not speculative

3). I don't know what the full implications of Brexit will be but 2). above is frankly, just common sense

 

1). I am off to spend the day with my ailing parents now so in the interests of brevity, this should help you http://europa.eu/eu-law/decision-making/procedures/index_en.htm
2). 10 years (or more) is the generally accepted measure as the period for negotiating a trade agreement, they are INCREDIBLY complex - look it up
3). what happened to 3..? has it been phased out by the EU...
4). can't help with that one other than to say that nothing ever stands still, its called evolution..

 

No forecasting involved, international trading laws dictate, not "nah, that won't happen"