Off Topic European Debate Thread

Im only going to comment on what I highlighted in red....

Thats fair enough, I can see where you are coming from. I wouldnt have gone on so much about answering questions if I knew your circumstances

Its a shame though that you couldnt read peoples comments because if you were able to, you would have saved more time in the long run as you wouldnt have to repeat yourself as much, as you would have seen answers to the questions/points that you were asking a lot.

Oh well...

 

Not for me, but when it comes down to things like politics I try to take a considered view and attempt to evidence base posts v using solely opinion. The EU vote should not be a form of internet sport.

 

??? IT IS HAPPENING ... I have lost over £25k in the past 2 months
FINANCE BILLIONAIRES THAT "FLOAT THE MARKET" have openly stated they will risk it till we are out over £100b has been wiped off already

 

Cameron said earlier that he will remain in charge if the UK votes to leave on Thursday. He was asked if he will walk away if leave wins the vote. He said at the last election, the public voted for his manifesto, which said to bring a referendum and also says if the UK votes out then he will carry on. He said he wont go against his manifesto that the people voted for.

Looks like we will be stuck with him.

 

Mr Osbourne's emergency (revenge) budget in the event of the UK leaving the EU would break that manifesto.

Says all sorts mind Cameron "Britain outside of the EU will prosper ...".

 

We could list a lot of things on his manifesto that he has broken but we would be here all night

 

I said I was done but this is too important to ignore - all the Leave advocates who believe that we will be free to trade with who we please on Brexit had better watch this briefing to the press.

The whole piece is valuable in terms of the relationship re sovereignty, British/EU law but if you just want the trade detail, watch from about 9 minutes onward.

I realise that it will not sway some but it might open the eyes of the less entrenched as to quite how royally we screw ourselves in the arse by leaving

It is important to have a full understanding of the economics of the situation and this bloke literally wrote the book...

Enjoy...

 

"The PM has refused to take part in a debate against other senior Conservatives."

Liked that one last night from David Dimbleby.

The referendum is part of HIS manifesto but he refuses to debate it with his own party

 

"It is we who want to give power back to people. It is we who want to stand up against the corporatist and elitist system that will never admit its mistakes. That is why we believe in democracy – because it is the best way humanity has found of correcting the errors of our rulers; and we are mad to throw it away.

Now is the time to believe in ourselves, and in what Britain can do, and to remember that we always do best when we believe in ourselves. Of course we can continue to provide leadership and support for Europe – but intergovernmentally, outside the supranational EU system.

I hope you will vote Leave, and take back control of this great country’s destiny; and if we Vote Leave, then all our votes will count for more in the future. This chance will not come again in our lifetimes, and I pray we do not miss it."

 

He quite literally didn't.. he is a Professor who by his own admittance has worked in education all his adult life and is biased to the remain side. (aren't they all?) and is a paid 'expert' for the government and remain side.

His first sentence with regards sovereignty is contradictory.. I'll watch the rest later to see if he can come up with any real facts but so far he is very clear where his loyalties lie, despite his protests.

 

He is a lawyer specialising in the EU and analysing and commenting objectively re EU competency and is quite open about his vote and if you are willing to listen to what he says about trade without pre--judging, you will see why...

 

To add balance we could think about a former head of the Bank of England saying that the Euro zone is headed for disaster.

Or

Gisela Stuart. Labour MP. A German immigrant. Specialist in international law. Worked on the EU Constitution. States the EU is unsustainable. A ticking time bomb.

 

A few more salient points, then I am really done:

It is an accepted fact that on average, it takes 10 years to negotiate a new trade agreement due to primarily, the regulatory concerns mentioned i.e. component requirements, kite marks, guarantees and basically everyone doing things differently.

Whatever you think, the guy knows his stuff so the one single statement that should strike REAL (not imagined or perceived) fear in the consideration of whether to leave or not is:

"it is completely beyond doubt that leaving the EU will also terminate all of the UK’s current trade agreements with 3rd countries outside Europe because those agreements were negotiated with and through the EU. THEY WILL TERMINATE IF WE LEAVE”

I've highlighted these words in a nice blood red colour because essentially, we will be cutting our own throat and will be at the mercy of the rest of world, not as to whether they trade with us (as most clearly will) but, it will be on their terms.

In addition, we will basically be in the same position with the EU as the implication is that we would not be offered "the Norweigan deal" as we would not agree to free movement of people.

I would suggest that any half savvy businessman/woman in UK manufacturing (and I am not talking the global conglomerates but UK SME businesses) who has a clear understanding of this statement and its implications must be absolutely terrified of a vote for Brexit as they can basically throw away their production lines and start all over again. Most would probably not be able to fund the Cap-Ex and would be finished...

The whole "Leave" campaign has an analogy to our very own football bulletin boards with fans clammering to get rid of a manager, for example Curbisley at Charlton or Pardew at Newcastle and look what happened to them (and many others).

Sometimes, unspectacular but steady is not such a bad thing, be very careful what you wish for....

 

As you often quite correctly tell me, these are opinions albeit in the instances you quote, well informed ones.

What Dougan is dealing with is a matter of FACT. Whatever your feelings on the subject, "the law is the law" and there is no changing it (without appropriate action)...

 

Wiz, love you to death dear chap but did you watch the clip...?

In response to the statements above:

1). we are not forced to do anything by unelected bureaucrats, they have no say. Legislation is passed by ALL 28 members, generally by consensus and of course, we always have the option to veto.

2). We will not be offered the Norway deal as this is expressly subject to free movement, which we won't agree to. The Swiss meanwhile are negotiating separate bilateral treaties for every bit of business they do (150+ to date) and these take A LONG TIME.

Re the rest of the world, 10 years on average to do a deal. In the meantime, we either do what we are told or we don't do business - hang on, sounds familiar...!

3). No real argument except of course that we export our murderers, rapists, ****'s etc abroad (generally to Spain) - this way, they would have to stay here..!

4). Fine, if we want out then sobeit BUT, we agreed to this in the first place. The alternative is that we can do what most of the rest of the EU members do and ignore the bits we don't like...

 

Gisela Stuart uses facts. She worked on the inside on the EU's constitution. She is no lad down the pub .. "I'm voting out cos we be told how straight nanas have to be ...!"

The law is the law. I agree with Gisela Stuart that leaving an organisation that is having to bale out member states, and override democracy to impose savage austerity on the these states is appropriate action . Its broken. Unfixable.

 

Just to point out, I wasnt born when the UK voted to go in to the EU (im showing off now as im not as old as most of you ). I certainly didnt agree to it

Out of interest, what was the reason the UK joined the EU in the first place? It certainly wasnt for how the EU is today. A lot of my older family members who were old enough to vote back in the 70's have said they will be voting out this time as what we got now is not what was on the table back in the 70's when voting to join the EU.