Off Topic European Debate Thread

[Mind the gap!]

You need to have power to be able to do something about it. How can the likes of Nigel Farage change it without power? He has been campaigning for change for years. He can only campaign for change as he has no power to do anything else. He cant force the EU to change. He cant force the PM to change. If Farage was the PM then maybe he could. By the way, for the record, im not a fan of Farage.

But to be fair to him, you cant say he has done **** all. You are completely wrong. He has strongly opposed whats happeed to the fishing industry under the EU and has campaigned against this. Also he has managed to force the PM to have a referendum which will hopefully give the UK the power to change things such as the fishing industry. How is that "done **** all"?

As an elected MEP he should be in the European parliament representing us. By not going he is simply taking a salary for doing **** all. Should be EU laws stating that elected representatives on a salary should be in parliament for at least a certain amount of votes

 

[Captain Jack Sparrow]

As an elected MEP he should be in the European parliament representing us. By not going he is simply taking a salary for doing **** all. Should be EU laws stating that elected representatives on a salary should be in parliament for at least a certain amount of votes

He is there a lot actually. Just go in youtube and put Nigel Farage European Parliament and you will see many. Some about fishing too

Just over a week ago...

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[Red Robin]

Sunday telegraph wants out

Sunday times wants out.

Both have put theirs names behind be exit today

 

[wizered]

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[Cliftonville]

Well It seems we have "Project Fear" v "Project Head in the Sand"

Just on a political tangent, Osborne may not have got it right yet but at least he is trying to do something after his opponents basically bankrupted the country. Talikng of serial bullshitters, does the phrase "no more boom or bust" ring a bell...?
http://www.bing.com/videos/search?q=no more boom or bust&view=detail&mid=64E775D5F2CE9600B53664E775D5F2CE9600B536&FORM=VIRE

Both sides are as bad as each other in this respect so this really is a void argument as they are all at it.

Likewise, I pretty much guarantee you that there are a very small percentage of companies who do not "massage" their figures in one shape or form to paint a better picture, some of you on here are business owners so let the casting of stones commence.

A few "fact-etts" then

- Our trade with the EU is 13% of GDP
- the number of MP's who voted for the expansion of the EU = 491, the number who voted against = 0 (that's right, ZERO).

On point 1, the EU is a vindictive organisation and will not take rejection well, if we exit, the head in the sand attitude that trade will continue as before is pure fantasy. They will make a MASSIVE example of the UK to fire a warning shot across the bows of any other country thinking of doing the same. They will do EVERYTHING IN THEIR POWER to make the UK suffer including hampering their own companies from trading with us (Germany in particular).

I have a real example of this in that when Viktor Orban in Hungary got pissed off with corporations shipping their profits abroad, he imposed a tax on the supermarkets, the banks and the advertising revenue of the media who all scuttled off to the EU whining that "he can't do that". The EU's response..? they tried to destabilise and oust the Government. Luckily, the people of Hungary turned out in the streets in such numbers that they had to drop it..

On point 2, we voted for what we got and now when we don't like it, we want to take our ball and go home. Where were all the detractors and descenters then..?

There is a lot of passion on this board (and elsewhere), nothing wrong with that at all but what worries me a lot is that whilst most people will accept democracy in action, what will happen re the anger exhibited by some (e.g. Jo Cox) if Brexit doesn't happen....


Vote Leave Campaign slogan "nah, that won't happen" = a campaign based on complete and total denial

Vote Leave = a vote for economic suicide, might as well join a queue of lemmings on the cliff.

I would not defend the left or the rights role.

Point one. You are using opinion there. Companies like BMW are making clear statements regarding the UK leaving the EU. They are not negative, and the German Government will not slap them down to damage their own economy and jobs.

Point two. My retirement age is not that far off. My we was not old enough to vote for common market now departed for a federal superstate

I have watched various debates. The master of denial has been the Prime Minister of the UK . Questions on immigration, housing and the NHS and what will happen if the UK remains in the EU have been ignored live on tv.

So regarding heads and sand. The bitter and threatening Remains project fear is a head in sandpit, a deep one.

 

[banksyisourhero]

"On point 1, the EU is a vindictive organisation and will not take rejection well, if we exit, the head in the sand attitude that trade will continue as before is pure fantasy. They will make a MASSIVE example of the UK to fire a warning shot across the bows of any other country thinking of doing the same. They will do EVERYTHING IN THEIR POWER to make the UK suffer"

This is the best reason I have read on here to leave.!!

 

[banksyisourhero]

There is a lot of passion on this board (and elsewhere), nothing wrong with that at all but what worries me a lot is that whilst most people will accept democracy in action, what will happen re the anger exhibited by some (e.g. Jo Cox) if Brexit doesn't happen

From what I have read and heard in various debates around the country it is the STAY lot that will throw their toys out of their prams if they don't get their own way. The racist, little Englanders have beaten us!!

I have read some disgraceful accusations from the remain camp and not one single base of fact, and your doing it now, its all it will be doom if we leave?? It won't, We will adjust and find a better way.

Thats why this little country has the worlds 5th best economy and is the seat of modern democracy.

I want OUR democracy back.

 

[banksyisourhero]

My point is that the person saying that the Eu is hindering us has done **** all over the years to help us. If we elected some MEPS to actually represent us then we may be in a better position Eu wise.

The British MEPs have opposed 70 plus EU laws being passed and have been defeated on every occasion, this includes Nigel Farages vote.

You make a good point as to why We should leave!

 

[Mind the gap!]

Taken from the times

It is not true that Britain sends £350 million a week to Brussels. According to the UK Statistics Authority, the actual figure is £136 million. It is not true that EU migration is the main cause of pressure on the NHS. That pressure comes from an ageing population and the rising cost of treatments.

It is not true that Turkey is on a path to EU membership, for all that Mr Cameron was a supporter of the idea until as recently as 2014. Since then, Ankara under President Erdogan has shown decreasing interest in accession, which takes a minimum of 15 years and which France and Germany would veto anyway.

It is not true, finally, that Brexit would answer at a stroke the prayers of those Vote Leave is wooing. This is especially so in Labour strongholds where most social problems predate the EU’s expansion and most immigration is from outside Europe.

A vote for Brexit is unquestionably economically riskier than a vote to remain.

Experts overwhelmingly concur. Paul Johnson, of the fiercely independent Institute for Fiscal Studies, puts the chances of Britain being worse off after a vote to leave at 90 per cent. The Treasury has projected an “immediate and profound” downturn in the short term in the event of a Brexit win, and a 15-year outlook of less trade, less investment and less growth than if Britain stayed in. The Bank of England, the US Federal Reserve, the IMF, the World Bank, the World Trade Organisation (WTO), the Organisation for Economic Co-operation and Development (OECD) and nine out of ten economists polled by Ipsos MORI broadly agree.”


Read more at http://www.strongerin.co.uk/newspap...al_divide_say_vote_remain#L8dZX5cUXPIi8TJQ.99

 

[Mind the gap!]

Taken from the Daily Mail

image: http://d3n8a8pro7vhmx.cloudfront.ne.../original/1444609021/logo_mark.png?1444609021



CAMPAIGN NEWS

NEWSPAPERS FROM ACROSS THE POLITICAL DIVIDE SAY: VOTE REMAIN

SUNDAY, JUNE 19, 2016

image: https://d3n8a8pro7vhmx.cloudfront.n.../1466329749/Newpapers_Ragout22.png?1466329749



Newspapers from right across the political spectrum are today calling for the British public to vote remain in Thursday’s referendum. Here’s what they had to say.

THE MAIL ON SUNDAY

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/debate/a...fer-freer-prosperous-yes-GREATER-Britain.html

"The human head knows that, especially in the world we now inhabit, our deepest desires must somehow be moderated to suit the increasingly tough reality of a competitive world in which, though still a great nation, we no longer have the power or the wealth which once allowed us to live in splendid isolation.

Those who would have you believe in the plucky Little England of the past are selling a dangerous illusion.

This newspaper believes that this is not the time to risk the peace and prosperity of our nation.

For modern Great Britain to thrive and prosper we must work with, not against, our European partners; we must keep our seat at Europe’s top table and help shape its destiny; our strong, clear voice must be heard inside Europe, not be shouted from the sidelines.

This newspaper believes in a safe, free, and prosperous future for this proud country. And so we urge you, our readers, not to take a leap into the dark. Vote to remain in the European Union – for an even greater Britain.”


Read more at http://www.strongerin.co.uk/newspap...al_divide_say_vote_remain#X2RjK41DxiRwyOUW.99

 

[wizered]

Jeremy Corbyn : There can be no limit on immigration inside the EU.
https://www.politicshome.com/news/europe/eu-policy-agenda/brexit/news/76327/jeremy-corbyn-there-can-be-no-limit-immigration

 

[Mind the gap!]

The British MEPs have opposed 70 plus EU laws being passed and have been defeated on every occasion, this includes Nigel Farages vote.

You make a good point as to why We should leave!

But how many times have we agreed in Unison with Europe. The Eu is one of the largest democratically elected parliaments in the world.

 

[wizered]

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[banksyisourhero]

It is not true that Britain sends £350 million a week to Brussels. According to the UK Statistics Authority, the actual figure is £136 million

Figure taken after rebates.. so its rubbish. If we don't pay it in we don't get rebates .. so more lies! the nett total is £350m a week that is a fact!

It is not true that EU migration is the main cause of pressure on the NHS. That pressure comes from an ageing population and the rising cost of treatments.

That is not the experience of people actually working in the NHS, thats why the Royal college of nurses wants out!

It is not true that Turkey is on a path to EU membership, for all that Mr Cameron was a supporter of the idea until as recently as 2014. Since then, Ankara under President Erdogan has shown decreasing interest in accession, which takes a minimum of 15 years and which France and Germany would veto anyway

More lies, Camaeron is a serial liar and it was France and Germany that recently did a deal with Turkey that included for taking back migrants they could be fast tracked in to the EU. (by stealth)

It is not true, finally, that Brexit would answer at a stroke the prayers of those Vote Leave is wooing. This is especially so in Labour strongholds where most social problems predate the EU’s expansion and most immigration is from outside Europe.

No one voting leave really believes it would, once again you have failed to take the whole point of this debate!! its about our border control being in control (YES CONTROL) of our own borders, this is a fundamental part of the democracy of this island.

A vote for Brexit is unquestionably economically riskier than a vote to remain.

Tell that to Greece! The EU is failing economically, this is factual and is backed up by figures and FACTS such as Wizs graphic above.


You should ask yourself MTG why certain papers and media and politicians want to remain, just maybe they are in the pockets of big business who may suffer a little at a Brexit and all their 'contacts' in the EU will disappear overnight.

Those big businesses know the workers rights you love so much have declined in reality during our time in the EU.

Look a little deeper!

 

[RedorDead]

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[Captain Jack Sparrow]

It is not true that Britain sends £350 million a week to Brussels. According to the UK Statistics Authority, the actual figure is £136 million.

£350 million is the GROSS figure that we send to the EU.
After rebates ect, the NET figure is lower that goes to the EU.

The leave camp are using the GROSS figure to back up their argument.
The remain camp are using the NET figure to back up their argument.

So when the leave side say £350 million is going to the EU, you cant say its wrong because they are using the gross figure and £350 million is the correct figure. FACT. It cannot be denied, only by people who dont have a clue what the difference is between GROSS and NET.

Which figure - GROSS or NET - is the correct figure to use by both leave and remain camps?

I say the gross figure because the EU tells us where we can spend that money that we get back so the EU are still fully in control of that money that you claim we dont send to them. They are in control meaning we dont have a say in the gross £350 million figure on where it goes. If we leave the EU, we get a say where that full £350 million is used. We decide. We have control at last.

Get it now?

Anyway, that figure you are using £136 million per WEEK, are you really happy about seeing that money go that it could be better used on our own soil? Thats over £7 billion a year by the way.

 

[Mind the gap!]

£350 million is the GROSS figure that we send to the EU.
After rebates ect, the NET figure is lower that goes to the EU.

The leave camp are using the GROSS figure to back up their argument.
The remain camp are using the NET figure to back up their argument.

So when the leave side say £350 million is going to the EU, you cant say its wrong because they are using the gross figure and £350 million is the correct figure. FACT. It cannot be denied, only by people who dont have a clue what the difference is between GROSS and NET.

Which figure - GROSS or NET - is the correct figure to use by both leave and remain camps?

I say the gross figure because the EU tells us where we can spend that money that we get back so the EU are still fully in control of that money that you claim we dont send to them. They are in control meaning we dont have a say in the gross £350 million figure on where it goes. If we leave the EU, we get a say where that full £350 million is used. We decide. We have control at last.

Get it now?

Anyway, that figure you are using £136 million per WEEK, are you really happy about seeing that money go that it could be better used on our own soil? Thats over £7 billion a year by the way.

I'm happy seeing it going abroad as the benefit comes with being in the Eu. The leave campaign figure Is misleading as the bus states that this is the figure that we could spend on the nhs instead when this would not happen as the people claiming this want to privatise the nhs. Also gross figure is the actual deficit not the Net figure

 

[Captain Jack Sparrow]

Also gross figure is the actual deficit not the Net figure

You clearly dont know the difference between gross and net.

Here, I will help you...

GROSS income is the amount of salary or wages paid to the individual by an employer, before any deductions are taken.
NET income is the residual amount of earnings after all deductions have been taken from the gross amount.

Look at job adverts for example.
Lets say a job advert advertises its wages at £25k a year. Does it mean they get £25k a year? No. £25k is the GROSS figure.
After tax and National Insurance contributions are taken off, you then get a smaller wage and that is the NET figure.

The remain camp say using the GROSS figure is misleading. Does this mean you think using the GROSS wage in every single job advert is misleading too?

Why dont you go to work tomorrow and ask your boss why they told you that you will get X amount of wages per year but you only take home Y amount a year. Watch them laugh at you

 

[Captain Jack Sparrow]

The leave campaign figure Is misleading as the bus states that this is the figure that we could spend on the nhs instead when this would not happen as the people claiming this want to privatise the nhs.

I said this 2 comments back but you clearly didnt read it.

£350 million goes to the EU. Thats the GROSS figure. They then send money back and they tell us where we can spend that money that we get back so the EU are still fully in control of that money that you claim we dont send to them. They are still in control of that money they send back meaning we dont have a say in the gross £350 million figure on where it goes.

If we leave the EU, we are in full control of that that full £350 million. We decide where it goes. It could all go on the NHS which the bus advertises. Leave though have said many times though that in reality only £100 million will go to the NHS. But the point is made that the full £350 million could go to the NHS.

How you dont get this I dont know.

 

[Captain Jack Sparrow]

I would give up now MTG as you just admitted to everyone that dont know the difference between gross and net as you said yourself the gross figure is the net figure

You cant argue / debate with us if you dont know the basics.

Surely you must question your own opinion now as you cant get the simple stuff correct.